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Old 02-18-2006, 09:31 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUMBA
Sorry if it sounds like I'm having a go at you Uriel, I'm not, I'm just putting points across, but with your comments about squats, it sounds good on paper but the proof is in the pudding I believe.

I can't think of a Pro who has not been pictured doing squats.
Tom Platz said squats were best and until someone with legs as big as his tells me they suck!! I'll stick with Mr Platz's advice.

For every pro you find doing squats you'll find two using machines. If we're on a quoting spree than just go ahead and ask Dorian Yates what he thinks of squats. He'll tell you what many people will: they are good for people with the proper body alignments. Platz had insane genetics and squats built him huge quads. Then again he also did sets of 30+ reps and his quads grew nicely out of it...But for the great majority of others squats are a posterior chain builder, not a quad builder. Hell, any powerlifter will tell you that a proper back squat is all about glutes and hams.
 
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Last edited by Uriel; 02-18-2006 at 09:43 AM..
 
    
 
Old 02-18-2006, 09:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by PUMBA
Your opinion is welcome, I would just feel silly telling a Sports Injury Dr they are wrong and then telling my self that I was wrong feeling no pain after having my forearms worked on.....I am not quoting books or anything here just actual and factual events......As you keep using the word MOSTLY you must agree that there are some cases where this is not correct. Thats why I said you were both right because it happens both ways that you two described YOU saying from Triceps and Peanut saying Forearms I have had it over the years from both LooooL lucky me.
Yes, some forearm muscles originate from the humerus. But they don't even touch the elbow joint. Any pain you might feel in those muscles, although it can be felt in the forearm area, is nothing like the pain of tennis elbow (which has nothing to do with muscles).
 
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Old 02-18-2006, 09:41 AM   #33
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And by the way the pain some people feel in their forearms whenever they use a straigth bar for curls/wrist curls is usualy due to curved bones (hand supine, the ulna and radius curve out slightly) wich cause instability and therefore pain. Again, nothing to do with muscles and overtraining.
 
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Old 02-18-2006, 10:26 AM   #34
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Uriel please stop trying to sound smart when you're for the most part cuting and pasting from other sites. Look at the difference between a "bodybuilding" squat with narrow stance and a powerlifting squat where they are almost doing a split. Studies show that the squat is primarily quads until below 90 degrees, that is rediculous to say its not a quad exercise.

How are huge compound lifts overrated, when sissy overhead tricep rope extensions are underrated. You really think 15 lb dumbell cuban rotations is gonna selectively target and give you a "freakier" infraspinatus than 250 lb wide grip pull downs? give me a break.

Finally, please tell me how going to failure is counterproductive from a physiological standpoint, and will lead to extreme CNS faituge. Ive had this argument before, and i have substantial evidence for my disagreeing with you.
 
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Old 02-18-2006, 10:45 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345
Uriel please stop trying to sound smart when you're for the most part cuting and pasting from other sites. Look at the difference between a "bodybuilding" squat with narrow stance and a powerlifting squat where they are almost doing a split. Studies show that the squat is primarily quads until below 90 degrees, that is rediculous to say its not a quad exercise.

How are huge compound lifts overrated, when sissy overhead tricep rope extensions are underrated. You really think 15 lb dumbell cuban rotations is gonna selectively target and give you a "freakier" infraspinatus than 250 lb wide grip pull downs? give me a break.

Finally, please tell me how going to failure is counterproductive from a physiological standpoint, and will lead to extreme CNS faituge. Ive had this argument before, and i have substantial evidence for my disagreeing with you.


1st The pasting comment is just ridiculous
2nd You're totaly missing the point. I never said squats didn't build the quads. They just don't do it nearly as well as they're hyped up to. They build other muscles instead.
3rd To the infraspinatus coment...that's comparing two totaly different exercises. Wanting infraspinatus growth out of wide-grip pulldowns is almost the same as wanting biceps growth of bench presses.

AS far as the failure part, it isn't counterproductive for muscle gains in the short term. But on the long run it is because going to failure is going to limit your training frequency. And for strength gains failure isn't good at all. Ever seen a powerlifter training? Strength gains come a huge deal from the CNS. You DO NOT want it burned up when your goal is strength.
 
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Last edited by Uriel; 02-18-2006 at 10:47 AM..
 
 
Old 02-18-2006, 11:44 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345
Uriel please stop trying to sound smart when you're for the most part cuting and pasting from other sites. Look at the difference between a "bodybuilding" squat with narrow stance and a powerlifting squat where they are almost doing a split. Studies show that the squat is primarily quads until below 90 degrees, that is rediculous to say its not a quad exercise.

How are huge compound lifts overrated, when sissy overhead tricep rope extensions are underrated. You really think 15 lb dumbell cuban rotations is gonna selectively target and give you a "freakier" infraspinatus than 250 lb wide grip pull downs? give me a break.

Finally, please tell me how going to failure is counterproductive from a physiological standpoint, and will lead to extreme CNS faituge. Ive had this argument before, and i have substantial evidence for my disagreeing with you.


AHAHAHAHAHAHA LMFAO

lol man i laughed my ass off when i read this lol

man u always gotta have a go if you dont agree
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Old 02-18-2006, 02:28 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345

Finally, please tell me how going to failure is counterproductive from a physiological standpoint, and will lead to extreme CNS faituge. Ive had this argument before, and i have substantial evidence for my disagreeing with you.
Hey Hdogg. I train this way anyway, but could you post the evidence for this or the link where you've already covered it as I would like to read it! Cheers buddy!
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Old 02-18-2006, 05:15 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel


3rd To the infraspinatus coment...that's comparing two totaly different exercises. Wanting infraspinatus growth out of wide-grip pulldowns is almost the same as wanting biceps growth of bench presses.
No its not, at all. The biceps do not serve as any part of a bench pressing, while pulldowns and chin ups absolutely recruit the rotator cuff muscles as stabilizers, you gotta be kidding me if you think chins will only target "upper lats". You really need to get off this whole "shaping" kick, theoretially yes there is still debate on this issue, however i can assure you the effects will most likely be minor, and i guarantee you will not add significant size to your infraspinatus. Why not try this exercise for shaping of the vastus medialis??



Quote:
AS far as the failure part, it isn't counterproductive for muscle gains in the short term. But on the long run it is because going to failure is going to limit your training frequency. And for strength gains failure isn't good at all. Ever seen a powerlifter training? Strength gains come a huge deal from the CNS. You DO NOT want it burned up when your goal is strength.
Define "burned up"? Describe the physiological pathology behind this "burning up". You realize that when enducing a MVC you enhance release of pre-synaptic neurotransmitter release (acetylcholine), resuling in an increased action potential and increase of seepage of calcium from the sarcoplasmic reticulum which leads to a delayed/impaired reuptake, thus producing more powerful contractions. As well as full motor unit activation (MUA) is achieved upon completion of a MVC?

How will failure limit your training frequency? Will doing an extra 1-2 reps to failure limit frequency that much? How is it not good for strength? A proper training program plans around ways to dissipate fatigue, with back off weeks or tapering. For the most part, training to failure is productive.
 
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Last edited by Ironslave; 02-18-2006 at 05:18 PM..
 
 
Old 02-18-2006, 07:48 PM   #39
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awesomly put big man i always sucked in tests how describing action potentials wish it was tta good!

to me a set that isnt maxed is wasted
warm up sets you dont fail on they are the only sets
wheather its 2 rep sets or 15 rep sets you shouild go to fialure i mean really why wouldnt you? and IF you felt like ur systems were overloading (never had it) then why dont you take a week off? whats the point of training if you're not gonna go in there and know you pushed yourself to your limits - not but exceeded them - and then get out to recover??
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AGREED
Old 02-18-2006, 08:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345
Uriel please stop trying to sound smart when you're for the most part cuting and pasting from other sites. Look at the difference between a "bodybuilding" squat with narrow stance and a powerlifting squat where they are almost doing a split. Studies show that the squat is primarily quads until below 90 degrees, that is rediculous to say its not a quad exercise.

How are huge compound lifts overrated, when sissy overhead tricep rope extensions are underrated. You really think 15 lb dumbell cuban rotations is gonna selectively target and give you a "freakier" infraspinatus than 250 lb wide grip pull downs? give me a break.

Finally, please tell me how going to failure is counterproductive from a physiological standpoint, and will lead to extreme CNS faituge. Ive had this argument before, and i have substantial evidence for my disagreeing with you.
He is only a pup (16 or 17 yr old). But since you have already shot him down in flames about squats it is pointless me even trying to put it any better (doubt I can anyway loool).

Quote Uriel:Yes, some forearm muscles originate from the humerus. But they don't even touch the elbow joint. Any pain you might feel in those muscles, although it can be felt in the forearm area, is nothing like the pain of tennis elbow (which has nothing to do with muscles).

AGAIN my young friend, Muscles have **** all to do with the pain I am talking about.....TENDONS & LIGAMENTS remember. One minute your talking about the pain in my muscles (i did not say this) and then you say it is nothing to do with the muscles CORRECT to a point.

Are you trying to say that during resistance training only the muscles are placed under stress and NOT TENDONS & LIGAMENTS??? Tell me thats not true please, otherwise how do we snap TENDONS & LIGAMENTS during intense exercise.

See my point....as peanut said, forearms can be placed in an overtrained state...look beyond muscles and attachment, because TENDONS & LIGAMENTS are also part of your anatomy.....have a look in your text book or whatever a 16yr old or 17 yr old quotes from and you will see this.

Uriel you have great input (sometimes) but seriously I was training and squatting when you were a sperm, so please don't talk about stuff you read in a book get out and experience it. I have been told by medical and training professionals in person where my pain comes form.

You are wrong Peanut was correct be a grown up and admit it PLEASE!!
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 06:53 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345
No its not, at all. The biceps do not serve as any part of a bench pressing
Actualy they do. The biceps originate from the scapula, they are a major stabilizer in benching. Ever noticed how your biceps flex when you press, in any angle?

And I won't lie to you. As far as the chemistry part of the CNS goes I don't know much. But if it'll take a few more hours of reading to prove my point I don't mind doing so. Learning is good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PUMBA
AGAIN my young friend, Muscles have **** all to do with the pain I am talking about.....TENDONS & LIGAMENTS remember. One minute your talking about the pain in my muscles (i did not say this) and then you say it is nothing to do with the muscles CORRECT to a point.

Are you trying to say that during resistance training only the muscles are placed under stress and NOT TENDONS & LIGAMENTS??? Tell me thats not true please, otherwise how do we snap TENDONS & LIGAMENTS during intense exercise.
Yes, the tendons also work. But unless you're doing your wrist culrs in a pretty odd angle that requires your elbow movers to stabilize, the tendons under stress are those at the wrist joint, and ligaments at the wrist and hand joint.

And I've been there before and I fail to see how my age is of any concern to this matter. It's simply a low blow that people often use - he's young so he knows ****. I guess all the studying I do is simply pointless, all I gotta do is wait 'till I'm 40. Even if I spend all day watching nothing but touchdowns by the time I'm older I'll automaticly be a genious...

So let's all just stereotype, shall we? I'm a teenager so all I care for are chicks and beer and I spend most of my week high. And you guys are bodybuilders so you're all as smart as a rock.
 
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Last edited by Uriel; 02-19-2006 at 07:04 AM..
 
 
Old 02-19-2006, 07:56 AM   #42
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yep! we're all stereotypes here urinal!
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Old 02-19-2006, 07:57 AM   #43
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Urinal .... haha.

Bad boys , bad boys what you gonna do when they piss on you :)
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:05 AM   #44
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LMAO lol
shutup evil douschbell LOL
jjk man
us aussie kangaroos all care
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:14 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel
Learning is good.
Yes, the tendons also work. But unless you're doing your wrist culrs in a pretty odd angle that requires your elbow movers to stabilize, the tendons under stress are those at the wrist joint, and ligaments at the wrist and hand joint.

And I've been there before and I fail to see how my age is of any concern to this matter. It's simply a low blow that people often use - he's young so he knows ****. I guess all the studying I do is simply pointless, all I gotta do is wait 'till I'm 40. Even if I spend all day watching nothing but touchdowns by the time I'm older I'll automaticly be a genious...

So let's all just stereotype, shall we? I'm a teenager so all I care for are chicks and beer and I spend most of my week high. And you guys are bodybuilders so you're all as smart as a rock.
LMAO yeah I know I can't spell hevi but I can lift HEAVY looooool......

I'll admit you are well versed in many areas and I have enjoyed alot of your Posts BUT there is one trait that you share with young people the world over......You know everything, because it has worked one way that is the only way, because I read one thing it is gospel, done it all before and won't be told a thing because of the FIRST POINT......You know everything!!!!!!

Ok lets look at this another way.

You want me to admit your right, a well read intelligent 17 yr old.

Against.....

1) ME who has had the Injury/Ailment and the successful ongoing Treatment
2)A Physiotherapist working for a District Hospital
3) Sports Injury Doctor who has his OWN practice and is employed by Pro Footballers and Pro Boxers to keep them in their chosen sports.
4)A Massage Professional who is also a qualified Aneasthetist/Nurse Certified in Remedial Massage, Oriental Therapies and Trigger Point Massage.

Even an old dumb as a ROCK BB can work this one out looooooooool thanks for the advice young man but I'll stick with qualified professionals if you don't mind.
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:23 AM   #46
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:O you're LEAVING urinals practise?!?!
NOOOOOoooooooooooo!
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:37 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PUMBA
LMAO yeah I know I can't spell hevi but I can lift HEAVY looooool......

I'll admit you are well versed in many areas and I have enjoyed alot of your Posts BUT there is one trait that you share with young people the world over......You know everything, because it has worked one way that is the only way, because I read one thing it is gospel, done it all before and won't be told a thing because of the FIRST POINT......You know everything!!!!!!

Ok lets look at this another way.

You want me to admit your right, a well read intelligent 17 yr old.

Against.....

1) ME who has had the Injury/Ailment and the successful ongoing Treatment
2)A Physiotherapist working for a District Hospital
3) Sports Injury Doctor who has his OWN practice and is employed by Pro Footballers and Pro Boxers to keep them in their chosen sports.
4)A Massage Professional who is also a qualified Aneasthetist/Nurse Certified in Remedial Massage, Oriental Therapies and Trigger Point Massage.

Even an old dumb as a ROCK BB can work this one out looooooooool thanks for the advice young man but I'll stick with qualified professionals if you don't mind.
I realy don't want anything. You don't agree with me, fine. We'll just agree to disagree then.
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:37 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothin' but a peanut!!
:O you're LEAVING urinals practise?!?!
NOOOOOoooooooooooo!
Hey kid, haven't you been paying attention? This is an educated people-only discussion, what are you doing here?
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:41 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriel
Hey kid, haven't you been paying attention? This is an educated people-only discussion, what are you doing here?
haha ... you got owned professor
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 08:47 AM   #50
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Old 02-19-2006, 09:32 AM   #51
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Old 02-19-2006, 10:11 AM   #52
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Can y'all guys shut the **** up plz about Uriel?
Wheter he's right or wrong, every time he gets in a discussion, I'm learning stuff from him and Hdogg. So can you plz go **** yourself because without Uriel and Hdogg response this thread would suck bigtime, and he might be right or wrong, the thing is, he contributed to the discussion.
So he might got owned or whatever, who cares, as long there's good info in the thread, and now you guys are kicking a man who's down and you weren't even the ones who put him down.
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 11:19 AM   #53
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I have to agree with JornT here. Everyone has their view and unless it's total BS then it should be respected. I have learnt from both Uriel and HDogg and think they provide well educated responses to questions and subjects raised. The same that there isn't one routine to fit everyone, there may be more than one answer to a question.
To be honest - I'm still none the wiser as to who is correct here, but it still makes for interesting reading. :)
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Old 02-19-2006, 12:13 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345
The biceps do not serve as any part of a bench pressing
Sorry Hdogg, but I have to agree with this one with uriel, bicep is.

The Influence of Grip Width ......During the Flat Bench Press

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doi: 10.1519/R-15024.1
The Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research: Vol. 19, No. 3, pp. 587–591.

The Influence of Grip Width and Forearm Pronation/Supination on Upper-Body Myoelectric Activity During the Flat Bench Press

Gregory J. Lehman
Department of Graduate Studies and Research, Canadian Memorial Chiropractic College, Toronto, Ontario, Canada


ABSTRACT
Lehman, G.J. The influence of grip width and forearm pronation/supination on upper-body myoelectric activity during the bench press. J. Strength Cond. Res. 19(3):587–591. 2005.—The myoelectric signal of the sternoclavicular and clavicular portions of the pectoralis major, the biceps brachii, and the lateral head of triceps brachii of 12 healthy men was collected during an isometric hold of 5 different bench press exercises.

Grip width (narrow, mid, and wide) and the level of supination/pronation was varied to determine how these factors influence myoelectric amplitude during the flat bench press. A supinated grip resulted in increased activity for the biceps brachii and the clavicular portion of the pectoralis major.

Additionally, moving from wide to narrower grip widths increased triceps activity and decreased the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major. However, if the grip was supinated, moving to a narrower grip position did not result in a decrease in muscle activity of the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major.

The increase in triceps brachii activity when moving to a narrower grip width was not influenced by the level of supination.

Considering the small changes that occur during changes in grip width, the choice of grip position should be determined by the positions athletes adopt during their sport. Sport specificity should supercede attempts to train specific muscle groups.



Introduction
The bench press is a ubiquitous strength-training exercise among recreational and performance athletes. Modifications are often made to the bench press involving grip width and level of body inclinations in attempts to modify the recruitment of the primary movers. Anecdotally, 2 prevalent beliefs are that narrow grips preferentially activate the triceps over the pectoralis major, while an incline bench press will activate the upper or clavicular head of the pectoralis major more so than the "lower" or sternoclavicular head of the pectoralis major muscle. The research is currently conflicting.

Two previous studies have addressed the influence of grip width and bench inclination on the myoelectric activity of the primary movers during the bench press. Barnett et al. (1) evaluated the 2 grip widths (100 and 200% of biacromial distance [BAD]) during decline, flat, and incline bench press in 6 subjects. Subjects were required to lift 80% of a predetermined maximum for each grip width and level of trunk inclination. The study found that the 2 heads of the pectoralis muscle were recruited differently, depending on grip width and level of inclination. Generally, the grip width had no effect on the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major muscle activation except during the incline bench press, when a wide grip elicited greater activity than a narrow grip. For both the narrow and wide grips, the flat bench position produced the greatest activity in the sternoclavicular head of the pectoralis major. For the clavicular portion of the pectoralis major, moving from an inclined to a declined position brought about a decrease in myoelectric activity. This finding is consistent with conventional weightlifting wisdom. For the triceps muscle, again consistent with conventional weightlifting wisdom, the narrow grip produced increased myoelectric activity relative to the wide grip.

Conversely, Clemons and Aaron (3) investigated 4 grip widths all between 100 and 190% of BAD on the muscle activity of the biceps, pectoralis major (sternoclavicular portion), anterior deltoid, and triceps. Participants were required to perform 1 repetition of the bench press at the 4 different grip levels. The subjects lifted the same weight across each grip width. The amount lifted was equivalent to 100% of their maximum at the narrowest grip width. The study found that all prime movers had less activity for narrower grips during the flat bench. Relative to each muscle's maximum electromyogram (EMG) produced during a maximum voluntary contraction (MVC), the triceps had greater activity than the sternoclavicular head of the pectoralis major, regardless of the grip width.

These 2 studies show conflicting results regarding the influence of grip width on the myoelectric activity of the primary movers. To summarize, Clemons and Aaron (3) observed greater activity in all muscles when moving to a wider grip, while the Barnett et al. (1) study had more variable results. Some muscle groups decreased their activity with wider grips (triceps and clavicular head of pectoralis major), while the sternocostal head of the pectoralis major's muscle activity did not change with grip width.

One reason for the differences in the results between the 2 studies may be related to the difference in the amount of weight lifted across exercises between the 2 studies. Clemons and Aaron (3) used the same 1 repetition maximum (1RM) weight (found for the narrow grip) across all grip widths, while Barnett et al. (1) used 80% of maximum load lifted for each different exercise, depending on grip width and level of inclination. Barnett et al. (1) were therefore comparing different loads lifted for the different exercise, suggesting that the load lifted, or even the exertion level (80 vs. 100%), influences the recruitment patterns of the primary movers.

Typically, the bench press is performed with a pronated grip. A common modification is to supinate the forearm while performing the bench press. It is theorized that this action is beneficial for those rehabilitating shoulder injuries, as the supination may result in increased biceps activation, thus resulting in increases in the stability of the shoulder and less superior translation of the humerus. This contention has yet to be tested.

Because of the varying results of previous work and the lack of research investigating the role of supination on upper-limb myoelectric activity during the bench press, the goal of this study was to determine the influence of 3 grip widths and the level of pronation during the flat bench press on the myoelectric activity of the clavicular head of the pectoralis major, the sternocostal head of the pectoralis major, the lateral head of the triceps, and the biceps brachii. The study also investigated whether forearm supination influences muscle activity in the biceps brachii during the bench press and whether grip width modifications can change the muscle activity in the primary movers of the bench press when keeping the same weight across exercises.

Methods

Experimental Approach to the Problem
A within-subject experimental design was used to determine how grip width and forearm supination affected muscle activity during the flat bench press. All volunteers had previous weight-training experience in an attempt to minimize the influence of inexperience on muscle activation levels. Because speed of movement and type of contraction can influence the amount of muscle activity measured, we controlled for this by measuring muscle activity only during an isometric portion of the bench press. During 1 experimental session, each subject performed 5 different types of bench presses. Bench presses were all performed on a flat bench, with an identical weight and with the weight held isometrically at the same distance from the subject's chest. However, different grip widths (narrow, mid, and wide) and forearm supination levels (pronated or supinated) during the flat bench press were used. EMG amplitudes (dependent variable) of the biceps brachii, triceps brachii, sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major, and clavicular portion of the pectoralis major were measured during each different bench press style. Differences in EMG amplitudes in each muscle for different grip widths and levels of forearm supination were then determined.

Subjects
Twelve healthy men (average age [SD], 26.3 [1.5], average height [SD], 176.7 cm [4.99], and average weight [SD], 79.6 kg [7.34]) with greater than 6 months of weight-training experience but without back pain or upper-limb injuries were recruited from a convenience sample of college students. Subjects were required to sign an information and informed consent form prior to the study that had been approved by the Institution's Internal Review Board.

Study Protocol
The myoelectric activity of the sternoclavicular pectoralis major, costoclavicular pectoralis major, lateral head of the triceps brachii, and biceps brachii muscles was collected during a 5-second isometric portion of the bench press exercise using 5 different hand positions. The weight lifted was identical across all trials. The subjects chose a weight with which they could perform 12 repetitions using the supinated midgrip width (100% BAD).

Data Collection Hardware Characteristics
Disposable bipolar Ag-AgCI disc surface electrodes with a diameter of 1 cm were adhered bilaterally over the muscle groups with a center-to-center spacing of 2.5 cm following skin preparation (shaving and abrading with alcohol).
A raw EMG was amplified between 1,000 and 20,000 times, depending on the subject. The amplifier had a CMRR of 10,000:1 (Bortec EMG, Calgary, Canada). The raw EMG was band-pass filtered (10 and 1,000 Hz) and A/D converted at 2,000 Hz using a National Instruments data acquisition system.

Exercise Tasks
The goal of this study was to determine the influence of grip width and level of forearm pronation on muscle activation levels during the flat bench press. Subjects performed two 5-second isometric holds during the bench press, at a position where the bar was raised 1 in. above the chest and 5 cm superior to the xiphoid process, for each of the 5 hand positions.

Each movement was identical except for 2 variables: the grip width and whether the forearm was supinated or pronated. Five different hand positions were tested: (a) 100% of BAD with pronated (forward) grip (midforward grip), (b) 100% of BAD with supinated (reverse) grip (midreverse grip), (c) 200% of BAD with pronated (forward) grip (wide forward grip), (d) 200% of BAD with pronated (reverse) grip (wide reverse grip), and (e) pronated/forward grip with 1 hand width distance between the 2 hands (narrow/forward). A supinated grip at the narrow grip position was not used because this position is rarely performed, and preliminary work suggested it was too unstable and unwieldy. Subjects started the exercise with arms extended and lowered the weight 1 in. from the fully flexed position or 1 in. above the chest (2 cm superior to the xiphoid process), holding this position for 5 seconds. The weight was then raised, and this series was repeated 1 more time with the same weight and grip direction. A 3-minute rest occurred, and the same movement was repeated with a different grip width. The order of the movement tasks was randomized.

EMG Processing and Data Analysis
The average root-mean-square (RMS; window of 164 milliseconds, overlap of 82 milliseconds) of the 5-second isometric portion of the bench press was found for each repetition. The average activity for each muscle group was then expressed as a percentage of the RMS average found during the isometric portion of the bench press using a wide grip width (200% BAD) and the supinated/forward forearm position. Normalizing to this task permits comparison across subjects and facilitates comparison between tasks. Normalizing to an MVC may also be performed, although it is not necessary if your element of interest is merely the ratio of activity of the same muscle across different exercises. Normalizing to an MVC and then finding the muscle activation ratios between the different grip widths would result in identical ratio values between the exercises. The average of the 2 repetitions for each exercise and hand position was calculated for each subject. Since the biceps brachii is not a prime mover in the bench press, a 3-second MVC was performed for the biceps (isometric exertion, elbow flexion at 90°, and fully supinated forearm). For the statistical calculations, the biceps activity was normalized to the average myoelectric activity found during the wide grip bench press, as was done with all other muscle groups. Additionally, to give physiological relevance to the biceps muscle activity during the bench press, we chose to normalize the biceps activity to the average maximum activity found during the 3-second biceps MVC. This would aid in the interpretation of the results.

Statistical Analyses
A repeated-measures analysis of variance with a post hoc Tukey test was used to determine if grip width and hand position caused significantly (p 0.05) different activation levels within the 4 muscles.

Results
For the clavicular portion of the pectoralis major, supinating the forearm increased muscle activity relative to a pronated wide grip and pronated narrow grip. Grip width did not influence muscle activity when the forearm position was pronated. With a middle distance grip width (100% BAD), supinating the forearm resulted in an increase in myoelectric activity. No other difference in muscle activity for any hand position was found. Table 1 presents the muscle activation for each grip expressed as a percentage of the muscle activity recorded during the bench press using a forward grip at the widest hand position.

Using a pronated forearm position moving from the widest grip to the narrowest grip resulted in a significant reduction in muscle activity in the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major. The pronated narrow grip width was significantly less than all hand positions except for the pronated middle grip width. Supination did not influence the muscle activity of the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major. Table 2 presents the muscle activation for each grip expressed as a percentage of the muscle activity recorded during the bench press using a forward grip at the widest hand position.

In the triceps muscle, using the narrowest grip with a pronated hand position resulted in the highest amount of muscle activity. Moving from a wide grip to a midgrip position increased muscle activity in the triceps for both the pronated and supinated positions. Supination had no influence on triceps muscle activity. Table 3 presents the muscle activation for each grip expressed as a percentage of the muscle activity recorded during the bench press using a forward grip at the widest hand position.

For the biceps muscle, relative to the activity during a wide grip pronated forearm position, changes in muscle activity were variable. Changing to a midgrip while maintaining a pronated forearm position brought no change in muscle activity, whereas a substantial decrease in activity was observed when the same change in grip width occurred while in a supinated position. Supinating the forearm resulted in increases in myoelectric activity for both the wide and midgrip positions when compared with the activity observed when using a pronated position of similar width. When expressed as a percentage of MVC, the average activation levels varied from 14.9 to 37.2% of the biceps MVC. Table 4 presents the muscle activation for each grip expressed as a percentage of the muscle activity recorded during the bench press using a forward grip at the widest hand position.

Discussion
The greatest change in muscle activity appeared in the biceps muscle group when moving to a supinated forearm position from a pronated position for both grip widths. One explanation may be related to muscle length changes during biceps supination. Biceps supination causes a decrease in muscle length, which may result in the biceps operating on a suboptimal portion of the force-length curve. Therefore, the increased muscle activity may not have resulted in an increased biceps force production. However, Chang et al. (2) found that the optimal muscle length for the biceps brachii occurred at 107° of flexion in a supinated position when producing elbow flexion torques. Although not directly measured, the elbow angle during the isometric portion of the bench press in this study appears to be between 90 and 120° of flexion. The amount of muscle shortening of the biceps brachii that occurs when moving from a fully pronated to a fully supinated position and how this length change influences the force-length relationship and the subsequent EMG to force relationship are currently unexplained in the literature. Additionally, Sakurai et al. (6) has shown that changes in elbow angle position when fixed in a brace have little influence on biceps EMG activity when flexion torques are produced about the shoulder. Therefore, changes in muscle activity may not be completely due to changes in muscle length. Future work should investigate whether this increased biceps activity occurs at different degrees of arm flexion and possibly different portions of the force-length curve.

The increase in biceps myoelectric activity when using a supinated grip and the trend to increase activity when moving from a midgrip to a narrow grip may be due to the elbow stability requirements imposed by these positions. A narrower grip may be more difficult to balance than the midrange grip, therefore resulting in an increased co-contraction of the biceps muscle with the triceps muscle. This co-contraction of agonist and antagonist, as seen with trunk flexors and extensors to produce adequate spinal stability, may also account for the increases in biceps muscle activity when in a supinated posture. This increased co-activation is supported by the trend for increases in triceps muscle activity during the supinated forearm position at the widest grip width. While the percentage of change in tricep muscle activity was not nearly as great as that observed in the biceps, the increases in force production may have been similar, given that the triceps are a primary mover during the bench press. The triceps are most likely producing forces much closer to their maximum when compared with the biceps. Therefore, similar absolute changes in force production for the 2 muscle groups may have different relative changes in muscle activity.

Last, the increases in myoelectric activity in the biceps brachii when using the wide and supinated grip may be due to the long head of the biceps role in providing shoulder stability. Pagnani et al. (5) showed that the biceps brachii functioned to limit humeral head translation. Supination may facilitate this function. Additionally, Itoi et al. (4) demonstrated that with external rotation (i.e., with a wide and supinated grip), the biceps function to reduce anterior displacement of the humeral head.

Grip width appeared to have no influence on myoelectric activity in the clavicular portion of the pectoralis major muscle when using both forearm positions. This finding is similar to that observed by Barnett et al. (1), although this group did use different weights for the different exercises. Our finding is in contrast to the decreased muscle activity found when moving to a more narrow grip by Clemons and Aaron (3). The reason for the increase in activity in the clavicular head of the pectoralis major when the forearm is supinated is unknown.

A change in muscle activity was not observed in the sternoclavicular head of the pectoralis major when supination of the forearm occurred. Nor were there changes related to grip width when in the supinated position. In contrast to the study by Clemons and Aaron (3), decreasing grip width from 200 to 100% BAD did not statistically change muscle activity, although a trend did exist. However, when moving to the narrowest grip width, statistically significant decreases in muscle activity were observed in the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major. The lack of a change in activity when moving from 200 to 100% BAD is similar to the nonchange found by Barnett et al. (1).

For the triceps muscle, while pronated, moving to a midgrip and to the narrowest grip resulted in increased activation. This finding is consistent with conventional weightlifting wisdom and is in agreement with that of Barnett et al. (1) and yet contradicts the findings of Clemons and Aaron (3), who showed decreased triceps activity when moving to a narrow grip.

Practical Applications
This study supports the conventional wisdom that a narrower grip width will result in an increased activation of the triceps muscle, suggesting the importance of this exercise if an athlete wishes to train this muscle group.

The results of this study also indicate that a supinated grip during the bench press increases the recorded myoelectric signal of the biceps without adversely affecting the muscle recruitment of the prime movers.

This increased myoelectric activity may translate to an increased force production of the biceps muscle, which can act to stabilize and flex the shoulder joint. Forearm supination during the bench press may be an important component in the functional retraining of injured shoulders.

This study also lends support to the conventional weightlifting wisdom that decreased grip width results in increased activation of the triceps musculature.
However, the activation of the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major is decreased.

If one wishes to cancel this decrease in activity, supinating the forearm appears to inhibit this myoelectric activity decrease in the sternoclavicular portion of the pectoralis major without adversely affecting the increases in triceps activity.

While small changes in muscle activity occurred during different grip widths, sport- and movement-specific training must still determine the exercises chosen in a training program. These changes in muscle activity are quite small, and attempts to focus on individual muscle groups rather than on movements requiring strength may be less than ideal.

References
1. Barnett, C., V. Kippers, and P. Turner. Effects of variation on the bench press exercise on the EMG activity of five shoulder muscles. J. Strength Cond. Res. 9:222–227. 1995.

2. Chang, Y.W., F.C. Su, H.W. Wu, and K.N. An. Optimum length of muscle contraction. Clin. Biomech. (Bristol, Avon). 14:537–542. 1999.

3. Clemons, J., and C. Aaron. Effect of grip width on the myoelectric activity of the prime movers in the bench press. J. Strength Cond. Res. 11:82–87. 1997.

4. Itoi, E., D.K. Kuechle, S.R. Newman, B.F. Morrey, and K.N. An. Stabilising function of the biceps in stable and unstable shoulders. J. Bone Joint Surg. Br. 75:546–550. 1993.

5. Pagnani, M.J., X.H. Deng, R.F. Warren, P.A. Torzilli, and S.J. O'Brien. Role of the long head of the biceps brachii in glenohumeral stability: A biomechanical study in cadavera. J. Shoulder Elbow Surg. 5:255–62. 1996.

6. Sakurai, G., J. Ozaki, Y. Tomita, K. Nishimoto, and S. Tamai. Electromyographic analysis of shoulder joint function of the biceps brachii muscle during isometric contraction. Clin. Orthop. 354:123–131. 1998.
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 12:32 PM   #55
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another classic thread with Uriel and others in an agrument
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 12:59 PM   #56
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lol! There's never any peace these days is there!
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SHUT UP FOOL!

 
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Old 02-19-2006, 01:02 PM   #57
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**** this thread became 6 pages .. i'm sure Hdogg will post here again
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 02:59 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by q80_muscleHed
**** this thread became 6 pages .. i'm sure Hdogg will post here again
LOL. First guys, one of the rules of BBD is no insults to other members, even though i disagree with Uriel, i did not personally do anything such as mocking his name, keep it professional or else this thread will be locked and people will be banned.

Second, JornT/Uriel, yes obviously the biceps will play a minor role in a bench press, all of the upper body muscles will serve as some synergist fucnction, however the biceps wont be hit nearly as much in a bench press as the rotator cuff will on a chin up.

Futher, it states that the biceps are recruited more when on a supinated grip (obviously), due to the excess need of shoulder stabilization, which is not typical for a bench press. Further, it also bases it on the principle of co-contraction of the antagonists.

Finally, the percentage of recruitment is very small "14.9 to 37.2% of MVC".

I still win :)
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:09 PM   #59
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thx for clear up Hdogg .. Uriel and gave u us a informative stuffs .. not to forget Jorn also :)
 
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Old 02-19-2006, 03:29 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hdogg345
I still win :)
LOL, I wasn't trying to win anything! If I was you were the last person I would choose to go against!
I didn't want to point out that biceps does ****loads of work and more than the rotator cuf in a chin or something, just wanted to point out it did something, which almost no one is aware of.





















Well to be really honest I just wanted to talk with the big boys
 
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