[yordi]

Originally Posted by hdogg345

Prolly pretty good for strength, and the stronger you are the better, but i still prefer bodybuilding split training for someone looking for size. You will still get strong as long as you keep track of what you did and try to beat it the next workout.

i log everything, and have tried programs like HIT (the new, old and Heavy duty way), hst, and now i'm doing a tweaked version of jay cutler's book CEO Muscle.

i'll start making my logs on the pc, to give you feedback in how i train, and how me and my trainingspartner look at our misunderstood world of bodybuilding.

will keep you posted on the log thing.

but to the point, i never tried any powerlifting schemes, because i train purely for hypertrophy. though i have done low volume and insane high intensity (which really gets the best out me). the split training i see in this thread isn't anything for me, i workout 4 days a week. monday tuesday thursday and friday. because of my jobs i don't have time in the weekend, and neither on wednesday so that's a nice day to take rest, and train a big musclegroup the day after.

this is what i currently do:
Monday: Quads, Hams
Tuesday: Calves, Chest, Abs
wednesday: off
thursday: Back, Biceps
friday: Shoulders, triceps, abs

it sometimes occurs that i do biceps in the morning, and back in the evening, and triceps in the morning and shoulders in the afternoon. depends on when i have to work, how my day looks and most important: how i feel.

i never train longer then 45 minutes. and i go all the way, warm up properly by doing 15 minutes cardio and stretching through the whole workout. i use "heavy weights" which i can get 100% proper reps out for about 6-12. when i reach 10 or 11 i increase the weight with 5-7%.

i go to the gym to be a freak, an animal. getting every thing out of my training for the best possible muscle growth. and since i love to workout, and do this, it goes great. (In combination with a properly tuned diet :))

[Ironslave]

Sounds like you are doing a ton of things great yordi, it all looks good to me. Split looks good, and im a huge fan of training twice in one day. Keep it up.

[yordi]

it's sooo much to type, but i'll make a start as of tomorow. since i work in a bodybuilding gym i talk alot with people who think all day long so it's bound to make some great readings and discussions. as promised in my previous post above: will keep you posted!

[fallen]

I feel that as far as training splits go a lot of it is personal, i mean the split i am using now is working wonders for me but that does not mean it will do you any good. I have tried many different types of training and for me as of now is seems to be working the best. just ny opinion

[fahad]

so hdoog u think if i train the same body part twice in the same day it will give me better gains or wut........

[Ironslave]

Originally Posted by fahad

so hdoog u think if i train the same body part twice in the same day it will give me better gains or wut........

Yes, provided your nutrition is sufficient, and you plan your training well. I like to do 3/4 of the volume i normally would in a single workout and do that twice, i split morning up into training shit heavy with lower reps, the evenings are higher reps with lots of drop sets, statics, etc. Id reccomend this for about 3 weeks, but then go back to normal training for another 2-3 weeks to allow some supercompensation.

Distribution of strength training volume into one or two daily sessions and neuromuscular adaptations in female athletes.

Hakkinen K, Kallinen M.

Department of Biology of Physical Activity, University of Jyvaskyla, Finland.

Neuromuscular adaptations were investigated in ten female athletes during a "normal" intensive strength training period for 3-weeks (I) as well as during a separate second 3-week training period (II), when the same total training volume was distributed into two daily sessions. No systematic changes took place in the maximal voluntary neural activation (averaged integrated EMG) of the leg extensor muscles, in the cross-sectional area (CSA) of the quadriceps femoris muscle or in maximal voluntary isometric strength of the leg extensor muscles over training period I with one daily sessions. However, a significant increase was observed in maximal strength from 2493 +/- 553 to 2620 +/- 598 N (p < 0.05) during period II accompanied also by a significant (p < 0.05) enlargement in the cross-sectional area of the muscle and by slight (ns.) increases in the maximum IEMGs of the trained muscles. The individual changes in the maximum IEMGs of the trained muscles during period II correlated significantly (p < 0.01) with the individual changes in maximal strength. The present results with female athletes suggest that the distribution of the volume of intensive strength training into smaller units, such as two daily sessions, may create more optimal conditions not only for muscular hypertrophy but by producing effective training stimuli especially for the nervous system. These kinds of training conditions may lead to further strength development in athletes being greater than obtained during "normal" strength training of the same duration.

[incognito]

I have a number of comments on this.

1) i don't know who Dr. Samuels is, but in my eyes the described theory for failure-training induced overtraining/fatigue syndromes is sort of pretentious. Everyone familiar with physiology knows that there are numerous redundant levels of control and I can't believe that this is all there is to such a complex state. And i would also like to see some pubmed references on this theory.

2) a body conditioned to frequent high-volumen resistance training doesn't need more than 24 hours or possibly less before the next training stimulus can be applied. if I do 5x10@80% squats once a week i get sore, but if i do it 3 times a week i don't. This most likely happens because the protective adatation from exercise decreases rather fast. This makes low frequency training positively reinforcing as people tend to back off higher frequencies, "because they're stille sore". Well, part of the reason they're sore is that their training is too infrequent.

3) then there is the matter of elevated protein synthesis. I don't buy most of the brian haycock techno crap as he is quite often wrong, but it is a fact that protein synthesis is increased for 48 hours at most. I am fully aware that changes in protein degradation may be just as important, but this is an even better reason to train more frequently as more frequent exercise produces less DOMS, which is somehow a marker of the relevant protein degradation.

4) this discussion represents the classical dichotomy between BB'ers and strength athletes+physiologist. How do you (the BB'ers advocating low training frequency) respond to the most commonly referred papers on training dose, the metaanalysis by Rhea et al and ACSM's position stand on training recommendations:
A meta-analysis to determine the dose response for strength development.
Rhea MR, Alvar BA, Burkett LN, Ball SD.
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2003 Mar;35(3):456-64.

American College of Sports Medicine position stand. Progression models in resistance training for healthy adults.
Kraemer WJ, Adams K, Cafarelli E, Dudley GA, Dooly C, Feigenbaum MS, Fleck SJ, Franklin B, Fry AC, Hoffman JR, Newton RU, Potteiger J, Stone MH, Ratamess NA, Triplett-McBride T
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Feb;34(2):364-80. Review.

5) I do appreciate that strength athletes and BB'ers should train differently, but in my eyes muscle volume seem to correlate with the ability to produce work, more than anything else. It's my purely empirical experience (and most of the guys from my WL club) that distributed loads allows for higher tonnage, and better training responses. The last paper actually implies superiority of distributed loads compared to concentrated (within the same day, though) and i find it striking that you can adopt this thought but only on a day-level but not on a week level.

looking forward to some interesting answers...

[Ironslave]

Nice post Incognito, good to have someone of your intelligence around. My post by Dr. Samuels describes the Central Fatigue Hypothesis, not overtraining as a whole as there are many factors that go into that as you mentioned. Im pretty swamped with some stuff lately so here are a few ones:

This talks about central fatigue
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Citation

So does this:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/72/2/573S?ck=nck

Those both acknowledge that while theoretically increasing BCAA's sounds great it doesnt always show up. A lot of the problem seems to be the way the research is conducted.

This one did find increased performance as the free-tryphtophan ratio remained stable while supplementing with BCAA's.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Good post and give me a day or two and ill continue this. Welcome aboard.

Edit: By the way just wanted make clear im in agreement with you that for bodybuilding a higer than typical (once a week) frequency is superior than the shit you see in Flex, say chest on monday and again saturday rather than the next monday.

[incognito]

i just talked to one of my colleagues, thats into nutrition, about this theory....

This theory has only been documented in various endurance models and is thus hardly usably when discussing failure training in resistance exercise, which you also advocate.

Furthermore, every strength/power/speed athlete knows that failure training eats speed and thus effective strength. I'm not saying that failure training is worse for hypertrophy, but if strength is of any concern one should refrain from using it. In my experience one builds muscle just as effectively with non-failure as failure training, if a slightly higher volume is used with nonfailure training - with even better strength gains.

I don't mean to be harassing you or anything, so just tell me if you think I'm outta line. I can take it.

[Ironslave]

Hell no you're not outta line, your insight is appreciated. Ill know a decent amount about physiology, but im the first to admit i have a LOT to learn, you sound like you may be a professional in the field or close to it, ive still got a ways to go to get to that level. I agree with most of your reccomendations for athletes. I think i know what you are trying to imply about failure training with athletes but i think you over generalized it a bit. It all depends on the sport, i think you are refering to sports such as sprinting or olympic lifting where the program is periodized for the athlete to peak for a specific event, in which case i agree, but for a seasonal long sport such as football or hockey where a short peak is not the goal, i dont see any reason why failure training would be hindering. I do think for bodybuilders there is a bit of difference, kinda a happy medium between high frequency like athletes and the typical flex mag once a week.

[incognito]

i seem to disagree again. :48:

in season sports, professional athletes very rarely try to build muscle mass inseason. 1) because the training burden from competitions and competition-specific training is so big that its hard to build muscle 2) because mass building training tends to eat speed and thus functional strength. A speed/power peak can be maintained for several months with just a small loss of muscle mass, which is exactly what many of these athletes do. I know the trainers of some of europes best soccer teams and they periodize their training like this. Also, i believe this is the recommendation of the american college of sports medicine.

i agree to the point of a happy medium, but i consider a happy medium to be training frequencies of 1/3-4 days. In my eyes the extremely split up routines with low training frequency only work because of muscle crossover.

another point... if one can get as good gains with non-DOMS inducing training (high frequency, non-failure) as with DOMS inducing training (low frequency, failure), which is my point, then why use DOMS-inducing training at all? Surely, it's a hardcore feeling, but it kinda sucks when you can't go to karate, play with your kid or go for a run because of thrashed legs/pecs/whatever...

[Ironslave]

Incognito, you sir are this close to losing your spot on my Christmas card list. :) You make a lot of good points, I don’t agree with all them. Ive got some free time this evening, ill type up a propper reply then. Again your opinions are greatly valued, dont hesitate to post in any other topics where you feel you can contribute.