Members
 Register


Rules | Groups | Arcade | Members List

 
Go Back   Bodybuilding Dungeon > Nutrition / Training > Training
 

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Need to work abs?
Old 11-13-2009, 01:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight

 
packn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 79
Rep Power: 19packn is just really nice

packn is offline
  Reply With Quote

This may be a dumb question guys, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Is it necessary to work your abs? Like have a set day for it? I figured with squatting, deadlifting, and all the other compound exercises you use your core a lot. I'm just curious as to what others think on this situation. Thanks for the replies.
 



View Public Profile Send a private message to packn Find More Posts by packn
 
    
 
Old 11-13-2009, 01:58 PM   #2 (permalink)
LIVING WITH CRS

 
mikeh40+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: U.S. OF A !!!
Age: 42
Posts: 7,915
Rep Power: 1570mikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond repute

mikeh40+ is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by packn View Post
This may be a dumb question guys, but I'm going to ask it anyways. Is it necessary to work your abs? Like have a set day for it? I figured with squatting, deadlifting, and all the other compound exercises you use your core a lot. I'm just curious as to what others think on this situation. Thanks for the replies.
not a dumb question, and its been addressed many times, mostly with mixed reviews, lets just say that it does`nt hurt to train your abs
__________________
My mind is a vault of information, It`s just that I forget the combination to the lock sometimes

New Training log >>
Mind Over Matter, if you dont have a mind it does`nt matter so i`m good to go

http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...tml#post747770


my review on the BBG

http://www.bigbackgrips.com/
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to mikeh40+ Find More Posts by mikeh40+
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 02:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight

 
packn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 79
Rep Power: 19packn is just really nice

packn is offline
  Reply With Quote

aright... thanks mike....I'll continue to do them.... maybe just not as much.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to packn Find More Posts by packn
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 02:28 PM   #4 (permalink)
NPC USA Champion

 
miggitymags's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MN
Age: 28
Posts: 893
Rep Power: 602miggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond reputemiggitymags has a reputation beyond repute

miggitymags is offline
  Reply With Quote

Abs are just like any muscle -- they need attention and work..

That said, some feel they get enough recruitment through compound movements.. Others, on the other hand, prefer to target them in addition...

And I wouldn't really listen to Mike60++ ........ he has CRS.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to miggitymags Find More Posts by miggitymags
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 03:11 PM   #5 (permalink)
V.I.P. Member

 
HawaiianPride.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,759
Rep Power: 1391HawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond reputeHawaiianPride. has a reputation beyond repute

HawaiianPride. is online now
  Reply With Quote

Don't dedicated one day to them, but incorporate them into your routine IF you wish. Remember, stronger the core, stronger the compound poundage.
__________________
***PLEASE DO NOT CONTACT ME FOR STEROID AND/OR SERM SOURCE CHECKS.***
I prefer not to be involved in that activity or the drama associated with it. Please respect that, thanks!

Stats as of March 1st:
5'11
194.5lbs
8%BF

****HP's Power/Hypertrophy Program****
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...rophy-log.html

 
View Public Profile Send a private message to HawaiianPride. Find More Posts by HawaiianPride.
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 03:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
IFBB Heavyweight

 
aild54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,192
Rep Power: 748aild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond reputeaild54 has a reputation beyond repute

aild54 is offline
  Reply With Quote

While I do agree that a strong core is VERY important. Not only is important for your other lifts, but also for your health and to prevent injuries. With that said, I do not feel that sit ups and crunches work your abs nearly as much as wood choppers, squats, deads, rows, etc. Sit ups, crunches and (especially) leg raises work your hip flexors more than your rectus abdominis.
__________________
Chris' New Log

"Pain must exist in order for healing to survive." -ABR
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to aild54 Find More Posts by aild54
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 03:43 PM   #7 (permalink)
NPC Middleweight

 
Lobotomyser's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Canada
Age: 20
Posts: 150
Rep Power: 85Lobotomyser is a splendid one to beholdLobotomyser is a splendid one to beholdLobotomyser is a splendid one to behold

Lobotomyser is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by aild54 View Post
Sit ups, crunches and (especially) leg raises work your hip flexors more than your rectus abdominis.
I agree with that. The only exercice I do for rectus abdominis is the cable crunch. On your knees, take the cable attachment and pull down by squeezing your abs only. I can get a very good stretch with this exercice and I can feel my 8 pac working well.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Lobotomyser Find More Posts by Lobotomyser
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 04:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
V.I.P. Member

 
ZiR RED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 28
Posts: 1,849
Rep Power: 692ZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond repute

ZiR RED is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by aild54 View Post
Sit ups, crunches and (especially) leg raises work your hip flexors more than your rectus abdominis.
They may actually do more harm then good: creating shortened, over active hip flexors that causes an excessive anterior pelvic tilt. This results in numerous problems: weakened abs, tight hamstring, inability to correctly recruit glutes, back pain, etc.

Br
__________________
Nimirum insanus paucis videatur, eo quod Maxima pars hominum morbo jactatur eodem.

ZiR RED has not been evaluated by the FDA.
ZiR RED is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

This is a warning: I am not a Medical Doctor.
This means you can not turn your brain off when taking advice from me, and can not sue me.

www.BrPhysicalPerformance.com

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bigred.htm

NSCA: CSCS, CPT
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to ZiR RED Visit ZiR RED's homepage! Find More Posts by ZiR RED
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 06:18 PM   #9 (permalink)
LIVING WITH CRS

 
mikeh40+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: U.S. OF A !!!
Age: 42
Posts: 7,915
Rep Power: 1570mikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond reputemikeh40+ has a reputation beyond repute

mikeh40+ is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by miggitymags View Post
Abs are just like any muscle -- they need attention and work..

That said, some feel they get enough recruitment through compound movements.. Others, on the other hand, prefer to target them in addition...

And I wouldn't really listen to Mike60++ ........ he has CRS.
oh NO YOU DID`NT !!! lol,, fricking young whipper snapper !!!
__________________
My mind is a vault of information, It`s just that I forget the combination to the lock sometimes

New Training log >>
Mind Over Matter, if you dont have a mind it does`nt matter so i`m good to go

http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...tml#post747770


my review on the BBG

http://www.bigbackgrips.com/
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to mikeh40+ Find More Posts by mikeh40+
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 06:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight

 
packn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 79
Rep Power: 19packn is just really nice

packn is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
They may actually do more harm then good: creating shortened, over active hip flexors that causes an excessive anterior pelvic tilt. This results in numerous problems: weakened abs, tight hamstring, inability to correctly recruit glutes, back pain, etc.

Br
What do you recommend to do then?
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to packn Find More Posts by packn
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 07:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
V.I.P. Member

 
ZiR RED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Age: 28
Posts: 1,849
Rep Power: 692ZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond reputeZiR RED has a reputation beyond repute

ZiR RED is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by packn View Post
What do you recommend to do then?

Most of the dynamic exercises you listed are good.

however, to specifically train the abs you need to deactivate the hip flexors.

TO do this, you must contract the antagonist muscles to the hip flexors - the hip extensors.

So, do crunches on a swiss ball with a resistance band for increased intensity.

Bridge up on your heels squeezing your glutes hard before each crunch and maintain glute contraction and bridging throughout the crunch.

Br
__________________
Nimirum insanus paucis videatur, eo quod Maxima pars hominum morbo jactatur eodem.

ZiR RED has not been evaluated by the FDA.
ZiR RED is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease.

This is a warning: I am not a Medical Doctor.
This means you can not turn your brain off when taking advice from me, and can not sue me.

www.BrPhysicalPerformance.com

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bigred.htm

NSCA: CSCS, CPT
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to ZiR RED Visit ZiR RED's homepage! Find More Posts by ZiR RED
 
 
Old 11-13-2009, 07:58 PM   #12 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight

 
packn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 79
Rep Power: 19packn is just really nice

packn is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
Most of the dynamic exercises you listed are good.

however, to specifically train the abs you need to deactivate the hip flexors.

TO do this, you must contract the antagonist muscles to the hip flexors - the hip extensors.

So, do crunches on a swiss ball with a resistance band for increased intensity.

Bridge up on your heels squeezing your glutes hard before each crunch and maintain glute contraction and bridging throughout the crunch.

Br
Thanks zir red. I'll definitely try those next time
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to packn Find More Posts by packn
 
 
Old 11-14-2009, 10:13 PM   #13 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CourtHouse Bay, Camp Lejeune NC.
Age: 19
Posts: 65
Rep Power: 10Ortega has a spectacular aura about

Ortega is offline
  Reply With Quote

well no matter how much you work your abs they may get strong but make sure you are cutting the belly fat so you can see them or you will look fatter building that muscle under the fat, but you can do the cable crunches those work well or hanging knee and leg lifts, windshild wipers those all seem to work good and they are not hurting your hips
__________________
Cause sometimes you feel tired, feel weak, and when you feel weak, you feel like you wanna just give up. But you gotta search within you, you gotta find that inner strength and just pull that **** out of you and get the motivation to not give up and not be a quitter, no matter how bad you wanna just fall flat on your face and collapse.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Ortega Find More Posts by Ortega
 
 
Old 11-15-2009, 10:51 PM   #14 (permalink)
Pro Bodybuilder

 
Kaboom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: burlington,nc
Posts: 6,105
Rep Power: 844Kaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond reputeKaboom has a reputation beyond repute

Kaboom is offline
  Reply With Quote

bad form on almost any typical ab exercise will involve the hip flexors more than the abs themselves
__________________


Signature image courtesy of BigPoppaSnake

http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...oms-114-a.html
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Kaboom Find More Posts by Kaboom
 
 
Old 11-16-2009, 06:32 PM   #15 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: CourtHouse Bay, Camp Lejeune NC.
Age: 19
Posts: 65
Rep Power: 10Ortega has a spectacular aura about

Ortega is offline
  Reply With Quote

true didnt even think about mentioning form and its the most important part :)
__________________
Cause sometimes you feel tired, feel weak, and when you feel weak, you feel like you wanna just give up. But you gotta search within you, you gotta find that inner strength and just pull that **** out of you and get the motivation to not give up and not be a quitter, no matter how bad you wanna just fall flat on your face and collapse.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Ortega Find More Posts by Ortega
 
 
Old 11-17-2009, 11:21 AM   #16 (permalink)
NPC Lightweight

 
packn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 79
Rep Power: 19packn is just really nice

packn is offline
  Reply With Quote

thanks for all the replies guys
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to packn Find More Posts by packn
 
 
Old 11-17-2009, 12:35 PM   #17 (permalink)
IFBB Heavyweight

 
Cork's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Delaware
Age: 25
Posts: 2,234
Rep Power: 680Cork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond reputeCork has a reputation beyond repute

Cork is offline
  Reply With Quote

1100 Pound Abs
__________________
Road to the OCB Eastern Seaboard Classic June 19th 2010. Wendler Cycle V
Strongman fun.
My E-911 Log. Thank's to LG Sciences for the oppurtunity.
2009 OCB ESC Routine
Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Get your diet in check!
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Cork Find More Posts by Cork
 
 
Old 11-18-2009, 03:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
NPC Middleweight

 
Gideon's_Test's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Michigan
Age: 34
Posts: 246
Rep Power: 131Gideon's_Test has much to be proud ofGideon's_Test has much to be proud ofGideon's_Test has much to be proud ofGideon's_Test has much to be proud of

Gideon's_Test is offline
  Reply With Quote

From: www.exrx.net

Incline Situp

During the first portion of the sit up, the abdominal muscles flex the spine. The hip flexor muscles flex the hip to complete the movement. If the abdominal muscles are not strong enough to counter the Psoas' pull on the spine, the lumbar vertebrae can be forced into hyperextension. This can occur during other hip flexor movements as well.

In the book "Strength Training for Young Athletes" by Kraemer and Fleck, the cover states "Includes over 100 safe exercises for 18 muscle groups and 16 sports. They include two sit up exercises with the feet anchored

o Page 105: Bent-Leg Sit-up
o Page 106: Bent-Leg Sit-up with a Twist (on incline)

Steven J. Fleck, PhD and William J. Kraemer, PhD are probably the most well respected scientists studying resistive training. Fleck and Kreamer have dedicated their careers in investigating researching, and writing both scientific and main stream publications on weight training.

Kreighbaum (1996) states: "The physical condition of the performer dictates how safe and effective these exercises will be in the strengthening the abdominal"

For those with no history of lower back pain during hip flexion, situps or leg-hip raises can be considered so the abdominal and hip flexors can be exercised in a single exercise. A determination should be made if the client has adequate abdominal strength to counter the psoas' pull. Like the lower back integrity previously discussed, this biomechanical deficiency can be easily corrected (see links immediately below). Crunches, or half sit ups can be prescribed for the first months before the introduction of hip flexor movements.

Incidentally, the bend of the hip severally diminishes Psoas' mechanical efficiency and consequently its pull on the lumbar spine. See tension potential. Kreighbaum (1996) adds: "For a performer with weak abdominal, the hip-flexed position is the best".

Also see

o Abdominal Weakness
o Hip Flexor Inflexibility
o Lordosis
o Lower abdominal myth

Flexible hip flexors and strong abdominal muscles are particular important before performing the Decline Situp, Roman Chair Situp, Leg Raises and Hip Raises since the hip becomes fully extended.

As for having your feet anchored effecting movement from the origin rather than the insertion, this essentially does not effect its activation. The muscle contracts through out itself despite the end that moves (origin or insertion). Are the forces through the Latissimus Dorsi some how different in pullup as compared to the pulldown? Your old physics or biomechanics book will clarify the forces are indistinguishable. Incidentally, the crest of the pubis is often referred to as the origin of the Rectus Abdominis, anyway. Obviously, man made classification systems do not perfectly fit all constructs; these semantics merely propitiate rhetorical arguments.

In a horizontal position, the anchoring of the feet will allow you to stabilize the lower body without extending the legs to counter the leverage and momentive forces of the upper body during its extended leverage in the lower position. Remember when the hips are extended the Psoas is activated more. In an incline motion, the anchoring of the feet prevents you from sliding back, or falling on your head.

If a client has such weak abdominal that their psoas is pulling on the back, corrective exercise should be performed months before they start on intense hip flexor exercises. To say sit ups are bad, or any other exercise is bad is a gross over-generalization.
__________________
I believe that consistency is key. If I don’t have it quite right at first, eventually I’ll get it.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Gideon's_Test Visit Gideon's_Test's homepage! Find More Posts by Gideon's_Test
 
 
Old 11-18-2009, 03:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
NPC Middleweight

 
Gideon's_Test's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Michigan
Age: 34
Posts: 246
Rep Power: 131Gideon's_Test has much to be proud ofGideon's_Test has much to be proud ofGideon's_Test has much to be proud ofGideon's_Test has much to be proud of

Gideon's_Test is offline
  Reply With Quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
maintain glute contraction and bridging throughout the crunch.

Br
I may be the minority, but I do this all the time as a courtesy to those in the gym that DIDN'T have beans last night...
__________________
I believe that consistency is key. If I don’t have it quite right at first, eventually I’ll get it.
 
View Public Profile Send a private message to Gideon's_Test Visit Gideon's_Test's homepage! Find More Posts by Gideon's_Test
 
 
 

Reply

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2