[ripcord1134]

Came across this article...Just wondering what you guys would think?


They sure don't build bodybuilders today like they did back in the good ol' days, do they? Remember when Arnold and Franco ruled the roost? The physiques were artistic and they flowed. The bodybuilders were strong, but also nimble. These were the days before bodybuilders simply got too big. In these training days, bodybuilders utilized a body part training protocol not seen very often these days. They combined chest and back training onto the same day. Today's elite bodybuilders (and most intermediates as well) follow a training split which places chest on day one of the training split, and back on day two. This is the S.O.P, or standard operating procedure, for most trainers, due to the indoctrination they receive from the pro's DVDs and just about every magazine article they've ever read on training splits. But it doesn't have to be this way!

A level of synergy can be achieved when the bodybuilder trains his chest and back together. The muscle groups connect at the serratus and they tie the entire upper body together. Some movements, such as pullovers and parallel bar dips, actually stimulate both the back and chest muscles at the same time. When you are able to engorge both groups with blood, your shirt will never fit the same again. It is the ultimate in full upper torso pumps!

Is there a battle of the compound movements when training in this manner? You bet there is! Most people start back day with a movement such as deadlifts, chins or rows. And most people begin their chest training with incline or flat benching. When you're combining the two, you have to make a decision as to which movement will receive your attention first. Most people would select chest, as it is the trophy muscle group. However, the muscles of the back are bigger, which means they would normally receive preference in a standard training protocol. It's a decision you have to make for yourself. Most trainers choose to alternate focus and start with each body part every other week.

When training in this manner, you also have to decide if you will spend 45 minutes on back, then 45 minutes on chest? Or will you be combining the two, using super-sets to challenge both muscle groups simultaneously. A set of bench presses, followed by a set of deadlifts will lead to a great deal of stimulation throughout the entire body. However, this kind of training does prevent you from performing at maximum capacity on either movement.

Shoulder training should be taken into consideration when training in this manner. Do you train chest and back one day, and then shoulders and traps the following day? Wouldn't it make more sense to place a rest day, or perhaps a leg training session, on that next day? Would it be wise to allow the shoulders and back at least 48 hours of recovery time from the incredibly tough routine?

Combining chest and back training leads to a lot of questions. Answering them is part of the journey you are taking to reaching your physical potential!

[Avril18]

man im following a split that is almost the same as what you say i train chest/back on monday legs on tuesday( read dapack`s log to the complete routine) and im loving it glad to read great reviews on that

[ripcord1134]

yeah i was thinking of doing

chest/back

legs

off

shoulders/traps

bi/tri


i have never done a single arm day always split it with other body parts...hope this will help a lil more

[Moro]

Back, chest and shoulders should all be trained on the same day in my opinion,
Its the best way to counter fake lat syndrome and keeps your physique in proportion,

However theres no way you need to spend 45mins stimulating back or chest like the article said

Once a week splits crack me up so much

[ZiR RED]

Train movements, not muscle groups.

The body does not function as isolated muscle groups, muscle groups function together to create movement.

So, you have upper body horizontal movements (bench press and rows) and upper body vertical movements (over head presses and pull downs).

If you want to split this into muscle groups, you are looking more like this:

Chest/traps,rear delts
Delts (front/side)/lats, teres major

Br

I am actually thinking about trying a chest/back day, I'll see how it works for me.

[ThereIsNoExit]

This article is utter rubbish, its all opinion and no substanciating fact other than "he did it and look how big he is".
Arnold and Colo would train twice a day 2hours morning/evening 5 days a week leading up to a competition and I've never seen anything arnold has written stating he would train back with chest.

[getbigordietryn]

however "there is no exit" majority of people do 4-5 day splits where back and chest are givin there own day. after a wile it mite be harder to make gains and switchng to a 2 in 1 day (back+chest) wite give a lil jump in mass after a few months then switching back to the old routine wum further the progress

[ZiR RED]

Originally Posted by ThereIsNoExit

This article is utter rubbish, its all opinion and no substanciating fact other than "he did it and look how big he is".
Arnold and Colo would train twice a day 2hours morning/evening 5 days a week leading up to a competition and I've never seen anything arnold has written stating he would train back with chest.

Did that article offend you by challenging the conventional, dogmatic sheepish following of the typical bodybuilding split?

Not that I'm in agreement with everything in there, but a. there are some good points, b. I'm a big proponent of matching pushing to pulling movements, c. the (vast majority) higher educated strength training world are propents of matching pushing volume to pulling volume, d. the research shows that bodybuilders especially have unbalanced musculature of the upper body, such that that it causes a wade range of shoulder injuries, e. since when is "well arnold and franco did blah blah blah, so....." substantial fact?!

Br

[ripcord1134]

hey zir where can u find examples of full push pull programs???

[ZiR RED]

I've wrote several, both for clients and helping people set up their own here.

its really quite simple, for every horizontal pushing movement: (ie: bench presses, incline press, dumbbell flyes, etc.) you should perform a horizontal pulling movement (bent over barbell row, t-bar row, pulley row, rear delt flyes, etc.)

and for every vertical push (over head presses of any kind...dumbell, barbell, push press, arnold presses..and lateral or front raises) you should perform a vertical pulling movement (pull downs, chin ups, pull ups, etc.)

Also, movements that bring the shoudler blades forward, such as bicep curls, tricep press downs, front raises, etc. should be balanced with movements that prevent shoulder injuries: scapulation, external rotations, scapula depressions, etc.

Br

[miggitymags]

Originally Posted by ZiR RED

I've wrote several, both for clients and helping people set up their own here.

its really quite simple, for every horizontal pushing movement: (ie: bench presses, incline press, dumbbell flyes, etc.) you should perform a horizontal pulling movement (bent over barbell row, t-bar row, pulley row, rear delt flyes, etc.)

and for every vertical push (over head presses of any kind...dumbell, barbell, push press, arnold presses..and lateral or front raises) you should perform a vertical pulling movement (pull downs, chin ups, pull ups, etc.)

Also, movements that bring the shoudler blades forward, such as bicep curls, tricep press downs, front raises, etc. should be balanced with movements that prevent shoulder injuries: scapulation, external rotations, scapula depressions, etc.

Br

Yes, but during these movements you should be retracting your shoulder blades to keep your shoulders back, correct? At least I do.

[ZiR RED]

Originally Posted by miggitymags

Yes, but during these movements you should be retracting your shoulder blades to keep your shoulders back, correct? At least I do.

Thats correct.

[ThereIsNoExit]

Originally Posted by ZiR RED

Did that article offend you by challenging the conventional, dogmatic sheepish following of the typical bodybuilding split?

Not that I'm in agreement with everything in there, but a. there are some good points, b. I'm a big proponent of matching pushing to pulling movements, c. the (vast majority) higher educated strength training world are propents of matching pushing volume to pulling volume, d. the research shows that bodybuilders especially have unbalanced musculature of the upper body, such that that it causes a wade range of shoulder injuries, e. since when is "well arnold and franco did blah blah blah, so....." substantial fact?!

Br

You clearly didn't read my post correctly, my initial point was that the article was using evidence to support it's claims which was untrue and had it been fact then the article would have itself have taken a 'sheepish' following.
I still however strongly disagree with the articles claims, there are simply too many muscles involved when training chest and back that training both at the same time is far too taxing on the system especially if end goal is hypertrophy. Added to that the time needed to train all possible ranges for both pulling and pushing movements is likely to deplete the body drop test levels and even send it catabolic.

[ZiR RED]

there are simply too many muscles involved when training chest and back that training both at the same time is far too taxing on the system especially if end goal is hypertrophy.

The chest is a single muscle, made up of two muscle heads: the clavicular head, which is about the size of the inner bicep head, and the sternal head which is much larger, yet still not as large as the latissimus dorsi. The pecs also are only the primary mover for one articulation: horizontal abduction of the shoulder, assisting in internal rotation and shoulder adduction.

On the other hand, the "back" as so many put it, contains more than one major muscle group, and several muscle heads.

The trapezuis, and their 3 fiber splits (upper, mid, lower)
The latissimus
The teres major
The rhomboids
The erector spinae
etc.

Also, these muscle groups perform a much more diverse range of motions:
Shoulder adduction - lats/teres major
Shoulder extension - lats
Scapula retraction - traps/rhomboids
scapula elevation - upper traps
scapula depression - lower traps
trunk extension - erector spinae
etc. etc.

I personally feel spending one day focusing on chest and one day focusing on all the muscles of the back is a little silly, based on the above information.

WRT hypertrophy, overload is the primary factor. Muscles do not need an excessive amount of isolation exercsises to create overload. Furthermore, the research demonstrates fairly well that overloading a muscle once every 3-5 days results in greater gains than once every 7 days, as seen in the typical bodybuilding split.

So what do I propose?

Horizontal pushing movements (ie: pecs) with horizontal pulling movements (ie: trapezius, rear delts and rhomboids)
Vertical pushing movements (ie: delts: side/anterior) with horizontal pullin gmovements (ie: lats, teres major).

Added to that the time needed to train all possible ranges for both pulling and pushing movements is likely to deplete the body drop test levels and even send it catabolic.

I can see how training like such will result in depleted glycogen and other fuel levels (all the more reason why post workout nutrition and correct macronutrient consumption is important).

But,
How will training like such drop test levels?
How will it send it "catabolic"?

Br

[Avril18]

wow great input red and i like to add that i love training chest and back the same day once every 3-5 days im getting stronger and bigger

[ThereIsNoExit]

Originally Posted by ZiR RED

The chest is a single muscle, made up of two muscle heads: the clavicular head, which is about the size of the inner bicep head, and the sternal head which is much larger, yet still not as large as the latissimus dorsi. The pecs also are only the primary mover for one articulation: horizontal abduction of the shoulder, assisting in internal rotation and shoulder adduction.

On the other hand, the "back" as so many put it, contains more than one major muscle group, and several muscle heads.

The trapezuis, and their 3 fiber splits (upper, mid, lower)
The latissimus
The teres major
The rhomboids
The erector spinae
etc.

Also, these muscle groups perform a much more diverse range of motions:
Shoulder adduction - lats/teres major
Shoulder extension - lats
Scapula retraction - traps/rhomboids
scapula elevation - upper traps
scapula depression - lower traps
trunk extension - erector spinae
etc. etc.

I personally feel spending one day focusing on chest and one day focusing on all the muscles of the back is a little silly, based on the above information.

WRT hypertrophy, overload is the primary factor. Muscles do not need an excessive amount of isolation exercsises to create overload. Furthermore, the research demonstrates fairly well that overloading a muscle once every 3-5 days results in greater gains than once every 7 days, as seen in the typical bodybuilding split.

So what do I propose?

Horizontal pushing movements (ie: pecs) with horizontal pulling movements (ie: trapezius, rear delts and rhomboids)
Vertical pushing movements (ie: delts: side/anterior) with horizontal pullin gmovements (ie: lats, teres major).



I can see how training like such will result in depleted glycogen and other fuel levels (all the more reason why post workout nutrition and correct macronutrient consumption is important).

But,
How will training like such drop test levels?
How will it send it "catabolic"?

Br

First off, the longer you train the more your testosterone levels dip the higher your cortisol levels rise, typically why people on steroids can workout longer than those not.
If you quickly munch through the food you've recently eaten training numerous large muscle groups at the same time you're body will quickly run out and look for other sources, protiens and fats etc and catabolise these in order to supply energy to muscles, which, I believe given this forum is a bodybuilding forum will be deemed counterproductive.
Furthermore the fact that the chest contains just two muscles is totally irrelevant, can you go through a chest workout and only load you're pectorials?
In order to press your using pecs triceps deltoids forarms serratus anterior and numerous other stabilising muscles (including back and shoulder stabilisers).
Then what is being proposed is that you train back which is predominantly pulling exercises so again using forearms biceps deltoids trapezious latimuss etc.
What is being proposed here is a complete upperbody workout not just "chest and back" as far as I'm aware this has never worked as efficiently or effectively as breaking the workout a few days apart to allow for full recovery and high energy levels.

[ZiR RED]

First off, the longer you train the more your testosterone levels dip the higher your cortisol levels rise,

Please back this up with some relevent sceintific studies. At the very least, can you explain to me (and everyone else following this post) using some form of physiology.

If you quickly munch through the food you've recently eaten training numerous large muscle groups at the same time you're body will quickly run out and look for other sources, protiens and fats etc and catabolise these in order to supply energy to muscles, which, I believe given this forum is a bodybuilding forum will be deemed counterproductive.

Any weight training session, regardless of length results protein degredation (ie: catabolism) exceeding protien synthesis. Furthermore, each muscle has its own stores of glycogen and fuels that are used. Training your legs cannot cause your pecs to give up glycogen, and vice versa.

Assuming you eat a diet with adequate carbohydrates, there is enough glycogen stored to propell you through a full body 2 hour workout. Furthermore, if you are supplementing with an in-workout beverage, this is even less of a concern.

And, if you want to speak empiracally, how can collegiate football players train for several hours each day, and still gain mass?

In order to press your using pecs triceps deltoids forarms serratus anterior and numerous other stabilising muscles (including back and shoulder stabilisers).
Then what is being proposed is that you train back which is predominantly pulling exercises so again using forearms biceps deltoids trapezious latimuss etc.

In that same sense, training just chest movements results in a full pushing workout. Why then, train delts and triceps as well?

What is being proposed here is a complete upperbody workout not just "chest and back"

First, I am not proposing trainging "Chest and back". I am proposing a radically simple view point, training movements and not muscle groups.

That is, movements that occur on the horizontal plane being paired one day, and movements that occur on the vertical plane being paired another day.

And, if you want to look at this from a biomechanical stand point, you are looking at reciprical gains, in that when you are pressing your traps are being stretched, and when you are rowing your pecs are being stretched.

Furthermore, your typical bodybuilding routine results in major muscular and strength imbalances of the shoulder joint, weakened bursa and tendons, and sends many bodybuilders and weight lifters to physical therapy, surgery, or just living with that burning sensation (tendonitis) lingering in their front delt the rest of their life.

as far as I'm aware this has never worked as efficiently or effectively as breaking the workout a few days apart to allow for full recovery and high energy levels

Again, will you please back some of this up with science, or at least the physiological mechanisms, and not the rhetoric you read in flex and muscle and fictions each month.

You obviously are not aware of much. Have you heard of dogg crap training, marc macdougal, Dr. fred hatfield, or any of the thousand of strength and conditioning coaches working div I football or profootball who are producing players with physiques that put most natural bodybuilders to shame all by training movements and not muscle groups?


Br

[Doctor Me]

[QUOTE=ZiR RED;718615]Please back this up with some relevent sceintific studies. At the very least, can you explain to me (and everyone else following this post) using some form of physiology.

Hey all... scientific backing as requested:

"Volume Purge for Testosterone Surge?
April 18, 2009 by Steve Holman, Iron Man Editor in Chief Q: I’m concerned because I read that it takes a lot of sets to get a testosterone increase and stimulate the best mass results during a workout. Your programs call for only one or two work sets for each exercise. Do you have an answer to this dilemma?

A: There are a couple of landmark studies on workout volume and testosterone increase. One showed that it takes four sets of squats in a workout to get an increase (Schwab, R. et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 25:1381-1385; 1993). I usually recommend only two work sets. Am I missing something? Maybe not: Another study showed that five sets of squats done at only 50 percent of one-rep max, about 15 reps per set, triggered a significant testosterone increase (Kraemer, W.J., et al. J Str Cond Res. 17:455-462; 2003). So even lighter sets of squats can add to the anabolic-hormone surge.

That means your warmup sets on the big, multijoint exercises like squats can result in a cumulative T-releasing effect. I usually recommend two to three warmup sets prior to two intense work sets. Do 10 to 15 reps on most warmups, and your testosterone should stay on the increase. Plus, if you follow 3D Positions-of-Flexion leg programs, you do two sets of feet-forward Smith-machine squats for hamstring midrange work, which adds to the T-boosting effect. Stiff-legged deadlifts, the stretch-position move for hamstrings, add to it as well.

Something else to consider about volume: Too much can kill testosterone. The reason is that the body releases cortisol, a stress hormone that can cause muscle cannibalism—basically, your body starts throwing your hard-earned muscle into the energy furnace. How much training volume is too much?

A 2004 study used three groups of subjects: G1, the control subjects, didn’t exercise; G2 did 25 sets; and G3 did 50 sets. The workouts consisted of the big, basic exercises—squats, etc.—a few sets of each, and reps were five to 10 with 90 to 120 seconds of rest between sets. The high-volume group had significantly suppressed testosterone over a 24-hour period, although there was no drop in the moderate-volume group. (Alemany, J.A., et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 36:S238; 2004).

That’s why the programs I outline all contain no more than 25 to 30 work sets in any one workout—and usually fewer. Of course, if you’re on steroids, you can throw all of the above out the window. You can stand a lot more work, recover faster and grow more quickly. I choose not to go that route."

Unfortunately as this is the first post in what I hope will be many as a member of this site, I cannot post this url:

http: // www . ironmanmagazine . com / site / ?p=2228

[Doctor Me]

[QUOTE=ZiR RED;718615]Please back this up with some relevent sceintific studies. At the very least, can you explain to me (and everyone else following this post) using some form of physiology.

Another article with scientific backing (and please don't lambaste me for the awful spelling mistakes... it's a copy-paste from trulyhuge.com):


Testosterone Training
By Chris Thibaudeau


Okay, before you get the wrong impression, this article is not about training on the "juice". It is an article on how to maximise the effects of your own serum testosterone and how to increase it naturaly.


A Little Reminder

Testosterone is known as the male hormone, It is secreted by the testes and according to the most recent research it is so in a circadian (regular cycling) manner. Still according to these studies even if each individuals have slightly differant cycles it is the general rule that testosterone levels are at their highest in the morning. So training in the morning do have a slight advantage over working out later in the day.

As you probably already know testosterone is the muscle-building hormone. By synthesising proteins it rebuild the muscle fibers damaged by resistance training.

The amount of testosterone in your body is a limitating factor because you can't build more muscle if your testosterone levels are not high enough, that's why athletes who take synthetic testosterone (steroids) experience faster muscle growth, their limitating factor just disapeared.

But without plunging in the hell of performance enhancing drugs there is a way to increase your level of testosterone naturaly.


Effect of Weight Training on Serum Testosterone

Again, research prove, in a consistant manner, that the level of serum testosterone is higher after a bout of demanding resistance training. That increase being affected by the amount of muscle mass stimulated, the training load and the level of intensity (again intensity reffering to a %age of your 1RM).


Effect of the amount of muscle mass stimulated on serum testosterone

Findings all flood in the same direction as to say that the larger the amount of muscle mass is stimulated simultaneously, the more the testosterone level increase. You might have heard a trillion time that multi-joints exercises were better than isolation exercises to develop muscle mass and strength but without really knowing why.

Well this is one of the reasons: multi-joints exercise stimulate more testosterone production compared to single-joints movements. That's why doing heavy sets of squat will build you all around, because it shut your natural levels of testosterone through the roof!

For that reason the bulk of your program should be constituted of the basic, multi-joints movements, if you want more testosterone that is!

Yet despite that we see countless individuals doing endless hours of biceps curl, leg extension and the likes. Literaly wasting their time when they could be training productively!


Effect of the Training Load (volume) on Serum Testosterone

Most of the literature goes in the same way on this issue. Resistance exercise must be done at a sufficient volume to fully stimulate testosterone production. Too low a volume will not cause testosterone to be released a level near what higher volume do.

But that doesn't mean that you should hammer countless sets of countless exercises. Because if studies shown that an higher volume do cause more testosterone to be released those levels quickly decrease after 45 to 60 minutes. So giving that evidence I have to disgress slitghly from my original plan to include:


Effect of the Rest between Sets on Serum Testosterone

Since an higher volume lead to more testosterone but longer training time lead to less there must be a time factor somewhere that will enable us to conciliate the two. Of course it's the time of rest between your sets.

To cut a long story short, many studies researched that variable, the most significant being by Kraemer et al.

This research consisted of two groups, one performing an hypertrophy workout made of sets of 10 RM with a minute of rest between each sets.

The other one was a strength training consisting of multiple sets of 5 RM with 3 minutes between each sets.

Both group shown significant increase in serum testosterone, the earlier showing a slightly higher increase.

That indicate that hypertrophy workout do increase testosterone level more than strength training. Also shorter rest periods seem to have the same effect.

If 1 minute seem to lead to bigger increase in testosterone level than 3 minutes I wouldn't recommand going below 1 minute in hope to increase the testosterone level even more, because by doing so you would greatly impair your short-term recovery and would have to decrease your load.


Effect of Intensity on Serum Testosterone

As I just said hypertrophy training seem to bring more serum testosterone increase. But one shouldn't forget that the group performing sets of 5 RM with 3 minutes of rest also showed a significant increase. In fact for optimum testosterone increase the intensity should be kept between 5 and 10 RM with a rest time proportionate to these levels of intensity.


Effect of Time Under Tension on Serum Testosterone

If the repetition range is a good way to determine the level of intensity it might not be the best way to determine the optimum time under tension. TUT also play a big role in testosterone stimulation since it directly influence the type of training followed, and since hypertrophy showed an higher increase in serum testosterone the time under tension should be aimed toward that type of training (to maximise testosterone production at least, maximum strength is another thing). The optimum time for hypertrophy has been found to be between 40 and 70 seconds. Thus 10 reps at a tempo of 101 might be in the correct rep range but the time under tension (20 seconds) is not high enough for maximum hypertrophy, in this case it would be geared more toward neural adaptation.


Points to remember

1-You should stick with as many multi-joints exercises as you can.
2-You should use a training load high enough to fully stimulate testosterone production.
3-Keep your reps in the 5-10RM range,
4-Keep your rest between sets in the 3-1 minute(s) range according to your intensity level.
5-For maximum testosterone release keep your time under tension between 40 and 70 seconds.
6-Train early in the morning if you can. Not to worry if you can't since this don't have a huge effect.
7-Increase your post workout protein intake to take advantage of the testosterone spike.



References

Baxendale, P.M., M.J., Reed and V.H.T. James. Testosterone in saliva of normal men and it's relationship with unbound and total testosterone levels in plasma. J. Endocrin. 87:46P-4P.1980

Booth' A.A., A.C. Mazur, and J.M. Dabbs. Endogenous testosterone and competition: The effect of fasting. Steroids 20:269-278. 1972

Bridges. N.A., P.C. Hindmarsh, P.J. Pringle, D.R. Matthews and C.G.D. Brooks. The relationship endogenous testosterone and gonadotrophin secretion. Clin. Endocrin. 38:373-378. 1993

De Lacerda, L., A. Kowarski, A.J. Johanson, R. Athanasiou, and C.J. Migeon. Integrated concentration and circadian variation of plasma testosterone in normal men. J.Clin.Endocrin.Metab. 37:366-371. 1973

Fahey, T.D., R.Rolph, P. Moungmee, J.Nagel and S.Morata. Serum testosterone, body composition and strength of young adults. Med.Sci.Sport Exerc. 8:31-34. 1976

Florini. J.R. Effects of testosterone on qualitative pattern of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. Biochem. 9:909-912, 1970

Florini. J.R. Hormonal control of muscle cell growth. J.Animal Sci. 61:21-37. 1985

Fleck, S.J., and W.J.Kraemer. Designing Resistance training program. Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics, 1997

Hakkinen, K,. and A.Pakarinen. Acute Hormonal responses to two differant fatiguing heavy-resistance protocols in male athletes. J.Appl.Physiol. 74:882-887, 1993

Kraemer, W.J., L. Marchitelli, S.E. Gordon, E.Harman, J.E. Dziados, R.Mello, P.Frykman, D. McCurry, and S.J. Fleck. Hormonal and growth factor responses to heavy resistance exercise protocols. J.Appl.Physiol. 69:1442-1450. 1990

Landman, A.D., L.M. Sanford, B.E. Howland, C.Dawes, and E.T. Pritchard. Testosterone in Human saliva. Experientia 32:940-941. 1976

Lejeune-Lenain, C., E.Vaucauter, D.Desir, M.Beyloos, and J.R.M. Franckson. Control of circadian and episodic variation of adrenal androgen secretion in man. J.Endocrin.Invest. 10:267-276. 1987

Loebel, C.C., and W.J. Kraemer. A brief review: Testosterone and resistance training in men. J.Strength and Cond.Res. 12(1):57-63. 1998

Staron, R.S., R.S. Hikida, F.C. Hagerman, G.A.Dudley and R.Murray. Human skeletal muscle fibers type to various workload. J.Histochem.Cytochem. 32:146-152. 1984

[Cork]

Good articles, Doctor Me, but a chest/back workout can be done successfully without needing 50 sets. So the duration spiking cortisol levels is moot. You actually helped prove Red's point, haha.

[GENOMYX]

Doctor Me are you the same member as Therisnoexit??? Im just saying :)

[ThereIsNoExit]

My source was Dr Harrison Pope whilst he was describing why people use steroids and their effects on the body in the channel 4 documentory "the man whose arms exploded" but all you need do is google "weight training testosterone levels" and you'll find plenty of info on the subject.

You've also gone completely off topic my entire argument was that training back and chest at the same time was too taxing on the body I havent been talking about doing pushing and pulling exercises on different planes nor was my post meant in response to yours.

And I also dont understand how you can criticize me and then do exactly what you are critizing me for in the same post - how is "because footballers do this and gain weight" and "because arnold did this and gained weight" any different?

This is a forum of opinion surely I dont need to go and provide a scientific study with substancial proof to everything I say - even then its still opinionated to some extent.
Like I said as far as I am aware (i.e. everyone I've trained with talked about training too including rugby players and coaches) training more specifically seems to yield better results and the law of large numbers would tend to support this and intuitively I would agree. I don't just take any random study on the net and immediately believe it to be true - I dont know how credible it is and I've never bought MD or Flex - its all crap.

And in regards to a training schedule I've always set mine up such that I would always train shoulders at least 3 days after chest in a 4 training day week and have never trained "arms" specifically as I feel all the pressing movements train triceps and all the pulling movements train forearms and biceps adequately.

When you say bodybuilders have poor workouts which leave them with shoulder imbalances I dont understand how that would have any weight on WHEN they are training but rather what exercises they are using which doesn't relate to my point.

So I suggest you step down from you're high horse and stop trying to insult me and my intelligence just because I have a differing opinion to yours.

[ThereIsNoExit]

Oh and I read Mike Mentzers book on HIT when I was younger incorporated many of his ideas into my regieme ever since so you cant accuse me of mindlessly following the bodybuilding masses.

[ZiR RED]

I'm sorry its taken me a while to reply, I have midterms these next few weeks, and have several 15 page physiology exams to prepare fo.

I'm not attacking you, and I appoligize if I came off with a holier than thou attitude - niether was my intention.

However, I have yet to see a published study using healthy individuals that correlated training volume with decreases in testosterone production.

In regards to:

Alemany, J.A., et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 36:S238; 2004

The study was done on sedentary men with a mean bodyfat percentage of 25%, not conditioned weight training athletes.

When you say bodybuilders have poor workouts which leave them with shoulder imbalances I dont understand how that would have any weight on WHEN they are training but rather what exercises they are using which doesn't relate to my point.

What the research shows, is that there is an excessive amount of pectoral and delt work done, with an inadequate amount of mid/lower trap work done.

It is my opinion and observation, that this is because all the back muscles are lumped together into one workout, while several workouts are spent training the pecs and delts.

Now, WRT to cortisol and test levels:

In endurance/aerobic training, yes. there is a high correlation, and in fact this type of training results in increased cortisol and decreased test.

In anaerobic and resistance training, there is a general trend toward decreased resting corisol and increased testosterone levels.

That said, the effect of cortisol on muscle needs to be looked at chronically (over long term) and not acutely (short term..during a workout).

Acute cort elevation IS NEEDED to fascilitate glycogen breakdown in the muscle produce energy, glycogen breakdown in the liver to keep blood glucose levels high, and lypolysis (the release of fat from adipose tissue), all of which are needed to supply energy to a contracting muscle during exercise.

At rest, elevated cort levels interfere with protein synthesis, and the anabolic mediatd effects of insulin and igf. The effect of emotional stress (ie: stress from work or school) has a much negative effect on muscle growth.

If you want to talk about acute GH release, you will see that the more musculature used and shorter rest durations will result in far greater release of GH. Another reason why I am a proponent of multiple muscle group workouts.

Finally, based on the research, and I'm going to quote a meta-analytic review, the best gains in strength are made training a muscle group at least once every 5 days, using 8 or so sets per muscle group. This cannot be accomplished devoting a single training session to each muscle.

Applications of the dose-response for muscular strength development: a review of meta-analytic efficacy and reliability for designing training prescription.Peterson MD, Rhea MR, Alvar BA.
Department of Exercise and Wellness, Arizona State University, Tempe, Arizona 85287, USA. mdpeterz@hotmail.com

There has been a proliferation in recent scholarly discussion regarding the scientific validity of single vs. multiple sets of resistance training (dose) to optimize muscular strength development (response). Recent meta-analytical research indicates that there exist distinct muscular adaptations, and dose-response relationships, that correspond to certain populations. It seems that training status influences the requisite doses as well as the potential magnitude of response. Specifically, for individuals seeking to experience muscular strength development beyond that of general health, an increase in resistance-training dosage must accompany increases in training experience. The purpose of this document is to analyze and apply the findings of 2 meta-analytical investigations that identified dose-response relationships for 3 populations: previously untrained, recreationally trained, and athlete; and thereby reveal distinct, quantified, dose-response trends for each population segment. Two meta-analytical investigations, consisting of 177 studies and 1,803 effect sizes (ES) were examined to extract the dose-response continuums for intensity, frequency, volume of training, and the resultant strength increases, specific to each population. ES data demonstrate unique dose-response relationships per population. For untrained individuals, maximal strength gains are elicited at a mean training intensity of 60% of 1 repetition maximum (1RM), 3 days per week, and with a mean training volume of 4 sets per muscle group. Recreationally trained nonathletes exhibit maximal strength gains with a mean training intensity of 80% of 1RM, 2 days per week, and a mean volume of 4 sets. For athlete populations, maximal strength gains are elicited at a mean training intensity of 85% of 1RM, 2 days per week, and with a mean training volume of 8 sets per muscle group. These meta-analyses demonstrate that the effort-to-benefit ratio is different for untrained, recreationally trained, and athlete populations; thus, emphasizing the necessity of appropriate exercise prescription to optimize training effect. Exercise professionals may apply these dose-response trends to prescribe appropriate, goal-oriented training programs.

PMID: 16287373 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Br

[Doctor Me]

Originally Posted by Cork

Good articles, Doctor Me, but a chest/back workout can be done successfully without needing 50 sets. So the duration spiking cortisol levels is moot. You actually helped prove Red's point, haha.

Hehe. I could care less whose point I prove. The request was for scientific proof that testosterone decreases after prolonged exercise. And I delivered. =)
In a normal, average male, testosterone WILL decrease dramatically the longer they exercise. I'm pretty sure that's been proven ad nauseum and needs no further addressing.

Originally Posted by GENOMYX

Doctor Me are you the same member as Therisnoexit??? Im just saying :)

No.

In regards to:
Quote:
Alemany, J.A., et al. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 36:S238; 2004
The study was done on sedentary men with a mean bodyfat percentage of 25%, not conditioned weight training athletes.

One can only assume these were actually soldiers, due to Alemany's numerous OTHER scientific evaluations on the military and performance thereof on and off the field... but hey... these guys very well could have been the guys on Alemany's golf team for all I know.
According to the study, the men were aged 19-29 years, 78-96kg, 176-188cm with anywhere from 16-26% bodyfat.
Unless I'm reading (24 ± 5 yr, 87 ± 9 kg, 182 ± 6 cm, 21 ± 5 %BF) wrong?
But that's just me splitting hairs. =)
Regardless, quite a few people on this forum will be novices just starting out and seeking 'that little bit of good advice'... and some will probably have body fat percentages closer to 25% than to 5% in any case.
I'm a big believer in 'total information'. If you train for too long, your serum testosterone levels will dip. 'Too long' in some cases may be 4 hours or longer, but it's still gonna dip.