[MikeNYY420]

Alright guys, so I'm reading the Encycloperdia of Bodybuilding, by Arnold. And it's 750+ pages long I'm about 1/7 through and have been taking notes and have some questions of them here they are.

First, what in the hell is oxidation, I've heard different things and heres what I've gathered, it's the process of burning, burning oxygen and ATP is the muscles case or in other cases another fuel source. Correct?

Second, Lipids, their stored fat correct?

Thrid, Arnold says that soreness is a way to tell that you had a good workout, but that the sorenesss comes from lactic acid building up faster than the cardiovascular system can process/take them out of the muscles. I've also heard that it comes from new exercises and introducing new things to the muscles and that it's not anything to do with a good workout unless it's a slight amount. I'm about 95% sure that he's talking about DOMS cause he talks about the days after too. Question is, is the reason that he says this because it's good to shock the muscle with new exercises? I think he's talking about everytime though so kind of unsure.

Also he says that negatives cause more soreness because of the extra stress on the ligaments and tendons. Is there also extra stress on the muscles resulting in strengthening or only on the tendons and ligaments resulting in their strengthening?

Fourth, he says that you should train through a small degree of soreness because getting a pump and the all the blood coming to the muscle that the pump involves will help clear the lactic acid- that's apparently still in the muscle still causing the soreness-I've always been told not to train through soreness. Science based information either way please?

Fifth, "The process of contracting a muscle involves the process of oxidation- in effect, a form of burning, which is why we say you burn calories (create heat by the release of energy) when you exercise. Oxidation requires both a source of fuel (in the muscle, this is ATP) and oxygen. Whenever fuel or oxygen is in too short supply, the muscle fibers can't contract until they are replenished as you rest and recuperate."

When for one can someone explain that^ paragraph to me? Also he says ATP, but ATP is only used for short bursts of 3 seconds (Or was is 5?) and a set lasts longer than that, so what it be correct to say the source of fuel is ADP also?

Bill Pearl was a vegetarian bodybuilder. Though his development wasn't as good as others he still did have a great physique. Do you think the lack of essential aminos found in animal sources could be a reason for this. How big of an impact does not having those be on your body?

That's it so far I'll have more questions of my multiple pages of notes later.


Thanks so much guys!

[stateofmind25]

There is an art to lifting, and a science to lifting...your enthusiasm for learning is great (yes, I do own the ency.), but I honestly wouldn't worry about a lot of the science portion for right now. Eating right, lifting clean, and staying healthy are the most important things. Listen to your body and lift reasonably (PLEASE don't ever be "that guy"). Notice I didn't say LIGHT but reasonable...you seem knowledgeable enough to understand that difference though it seems. Good luck!


Oh yeah, don't do drugs, say your prayers, and take your vitamins!

[jlavvley]

damn dude you ask some preety good question on ur post very intresting on all the sorness stuff like to see what people will put

[KM]

Originally Posted by MikeNYY420

Thrid, Arnold says that soreness is a way to tell that you had a good workout, but that the sorenesss comes from lactic acid building up faster than the cardiovascular system can process/take them out of the muscles. I've also heard that it comes from new exercises and introducing new things to the muscles and that it's not anything to do with a good workout unless it's a slight amount. I'm about 95% sure that he's talking about DOMS cause he talks about the days after too. Question is, is the reason that he says this because it's good to shock the muscle with new exercises? I think he's talking about everytime though so kind of unsure.

Arnold Ency is a good book but usually contains outdated info.

DOMS, based on readings, is quite the opposite if we're talking hypertrophic gains, which I'm sure Arnold is. Lactic acid as little involvement in DOMS; it is microdamage to the cell membrane. You can cause this with slow negatives, new fiberal patterns and poor conditioning. It reduces protein synthesis because of energy demands to membrane healing.

Fourth, he says that you should train through a small degree of soreness because getting a pump and the all the blood coming to the muscle that the pump involves will help clear the lactic acid- that's apparently still in the muscle still causing the soreness-I've always been told not to train through soreness. Science based information either way please?

DOMS has little affiliation towards a "pump". Based on the info I stated above, if you continue to train synergistic bodyparts and assistant bodyparts for a certain lift, you will not allow complete recovery of the sacrolemma which further your DOMS and put you back farther.

Fifth, "The process of contracting a muscle involves the process of oxidation- in effect, a form of burning, which is why we say you burn calories (create heat by the release of energy) when you exercise. Oxidation requires both a source of fuel (in the muscle, this is ATP) and oxygen. Whenever fuel or oxygen is in too short supply, the muscle fibers can't contract until they are replenished as you rest and recuperate."

This involves the phosphagen system, as I remember someone explaining to you. The burn is caused by a drop of the pH of the blood drops when oxygen is not present. Oxygen is needed within the contractile proteins.

The part about oxidation and calorie incinerating I can't help you on. I've never heard of it..

When for one can someone explain that^ paragraph to me? Also he says ATP, but ATP is only used for short bursts of 3 seconds (Or was is 5?) and a set lasts longer than that, so what it be correct to say the source of fuel is ADP also?

The ATP system can yield energy for up to 15sec there abouts. 3-5 seconds he might be explaining the phosphocreatine separation, and so on.

Bill Pearl was a vegetarian bodybuilder. Though his development wasn't as good as others he still did have a great physique. Do you think the lack of essential aminos found in animal sources could be a reason for this. How big of an impact does not having those be on your body?

He needs complete protein sources, aka, carrying those EAA's for muscle girth. Without it muscle repair will be slow or non existent. (Hence: whey protein, search ingredients).

That's all I can do bro, others will chime in I'm sure.

Great questions! Keep doing damage knowledge wise.

[KM]

Originally Posted by stateofmind25

There is an art to lifting, and a science to lifting...your enthusiasm for learning is great (yes, I do own the ency.), but I honestly wouldn't worry about a lot of the science portion for right now. Eating right, lifting clean, and staying healthy are the most important things. Listen to your body and lift reasonably (PLEASE don't ever be "that guy"). Notice I didn't say LIGHT but reasonable...you seem knowledgeable enough to understand that difference though it seems. Good luck!


Oh yeah, don't do drugs, say your prayers, and take your vitamins!

Do not steer someone away from learning the science about the support. The progress hes made mental and physical is outstanding, something not say "dont worry about it and so on".

[tim290280]

KM has already covered things well but I'll add a few bits and pieces.

Originally Posted by MikeNYY420

Alright guys, so I'm reading the Encycloperdia of Bodybuilding, by Arnold. And it's 750+ pages long I'm about 1/7 through and have been taking notes and have some questions of them here they are.

I own Arnies book too, but it isn't the be all and end all. He did a lot of things right without really knowing why, but he also did a lot wrong. Try and read a few other books as well (Riptoe's Starting Strength, I think Cressey's new Maximum Strength could be good too).

First, what in the hell is oxidation, I've heard different things and heres what I've gathered, it's the process of burning, burning oxygen and ATP is the muscles case or in other cases another fuel source. Correct?

Oxidation is literally burning in oxygen.

Second, Lipids, their stored fat correct?

yes

Thrid, Arnold says that soreness is a way to tell that you had a good workout, but that the sorenesss comes from lactic acid building up faster than the cardiovascular system can process/take them out of the muscles. I've also heard that it comes from new exercises and introducing new things to the muscles and that it's not anything to do with a good workout unless it's a slight amount. I'm about 95% sure that he's talking about DOMS cause he talks about the days after too. Question is, is the reason that he says this because it's good to shock the muscle with new exercises? I think he's talking about everytime though so kind of unsure.

DOMS is not a good measure of muscle recruitment or progress. There are some studies around showing that G2 DOMS (painfull when you move) is actually holding back your recovery.

Also he says that negatives cause more soreness because of the extra stress on the ligaments and tendons. Is there also extra stress on the muscles resulting in strengthening or only on the tendons and ligaments resulting in their strengthening?

Negatives are associated with higher levels of DOMS because you aren't contracting against the weight, rather releasing your contraction, which allows more fibre damage. You can also usually use higher loads on the eccentric so that is where the tendon and ligament strengthening can come in, as the old time lifters swore by isometric holds and high loads for this. Although the only work I have seen on T&L strengthening has it occurring at higher rep ranges, not under heavier loads. Also T&L take longer to "hypertrophy" than muscles. Can post more on eccentrics if you like.

Fourth, he says that you should train through a small degree of soreness because getting a pump and the all the blood coming to the muscle that the pump involves will help clear the lactic acid- that's apparently still in the muscle still causing the soreness-I've always been told not to train through soreness. Science based information either way please?

Depends on the level of soreness. Mild soreness this works, but it has to be lighter and not necessarily a pump as much as activity. THe Japanese occlusion work (arms and calves being wrapped tight to not allow blood removal) was based on this principle.

Fifth, "The process of contracting a muscle involves the process of oxidation- in effect, a form of burning, which is why we say you burn calories (create heat by the release of energy) when you exercise. Oxidation requires both a source of fuel (in the muscle, this is ATP) and oxygen. Whenever fuel or oxygen is in too short supply, the muscle fibers can't contract until they are replenished as you rest and recuperate."

When for one can someone explain that^ paragraph to me? Also he says ATP, but ATP is only used for short bursts of 3 seconds (Or was is 5?) and a set lasts longer than that, so what it be correct to say the source of fuel is ADP also?

Um depends on the activity. Aerobic systems rely on oxygen, anerobic don't. Still burning energy but your anerobic glycolosis is the short burst, high power system that doesn't need oxygen.

Bill Pearl was a vegetarian bodybuilder. Though his development wasn't as good as others he still did have a great physique. Do you think the lack of essential aminos found in animal sources could be a reason for this. How big of an impact does not having those be on your body?

Bill Pearl was training in an age when he wasn't competing as a BBer but rather a Physique Athlete. They never tried to get that lean (competed at ~8-9%) and were often weight lifters and the like.

Also you don't lack for essential aminos just because you are vegetarian. What you lack for is complete proteins. THis means you have to source your aminos from various sources in the same meal in order to get a complete profile (I'm pretty sure Arnie covers this). As long as you have some animal sources (eggs, fish, dairy), which is common for vegetarians (lacto-ovo-vegetarians anyone?) then you can get the aminos that are only present in animal sources. Now Vegans are a different story. Either way you don't see vegans dropping dead as their bodies recycle aminos, and they get just enough from soy (which is regarded as a complete protein, although I was to understand it wasn't but has the aminos other plant based products don't have that animal sources do).

[MikeNYY420]

Km and Tim thanks for the answers! Great info I'll have to write some of this down too. It sucks that some info's outdated ****.

And Kev I think it was Freak and Zir that have told me about oxidation, it's pretty confusing, but I'm understanding it. I remember Zir saying though that ATP lasts something like 5 seconds before at 9 seconds ADP is used?

I guess my question in the Bill Pearl example was more of can you get all of the essential aminos from only plant sources? Do some plants have say leucine and others have isoleusine?

[ZiR RED]

I'll have to come back to this later today. I love Arnold, but take the book and use it as a coffee table ornament.

A few quick notes:

Lactic acid takes about 1-2 hours to clear, it has nothing to do with DOMS.
Oxidization (aerobic) is the energy system used for endurance events or while you are at rest. During resistance training, you are employing the anaerobic systems.

Br

[Gamble]

Originally Posted by ZiR RED

I'll have to come back to this later today. I love Arnold, but take the book and use it as a coffee table ornament.

Hey Zir,
I was thinking about purchasing arnies encyclopedia but as it seems to be quite outdated do you know of any similar books to do with muscle physiology etc relating to bodybuilding that are more up to date and reliable.Any help in trying to quench my thirst for knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Gamble

[MikeNYY420]

^ Yeah I'd like to get a better one, maybe some type of college textbook?

Damn so it sounds like he really does know all of what he talks about. ****. I'll still read the book but double check all the new info on here.

Zir what's your major in college, cuz I remember you talking about listening this type of stuff in school. I'm interested in learning about and possibly majoring in some type of exercise or nutrition courses.

I had a couple more questions after reading another hundred or so pages today.

He says biceps are the fastest recovering muscles and lower back takes the longest, true or no?

He also says that muscles tire from running out of oxygen and fuel, ATP. So my question is will breathing extremely heavy and deep slow down this process at all. I'm talking about doing a set.

He says, after 3 minutes rest between sets the muscles are recovered with all the strength they'll have back until they have long periods (hours) of rest. But goes on to say that you should wait only one minute where 72% of strength is back and your cardiovascular system has recovered (basically catching your breath). If you do a set after that time then you'll have to recruit new muscle fibers to help lift the weight (still in the say muscle of course) which is what you want. Well I've always been told in powerlifting to wait 3 minutes between sets but if you're trying to get stronger if seems like you'd follow the same principle and work at a diminished strength level to increase it, yes?

He also says that there's intermuscular fat which is why some bodybuilders look ripped at 12 percent BF while I'd have to be at like 8. True?

[KM]

Originally Posted by MikeNYY420

He says biceps are the fastest recovering muscles and lower back takes the longest, true or no?

That's true I would say. Think muscle involvement;

Biceps are used on pulling/rowing movements only, and very little during OH presses. The lumbar and external core, local, etc. is used in stabilization for almost all multi-joint lifts.

He also says that muscles tire from running out of oxygen and fuel, ATP. So my question is will breathing extremely heavy and deep slow down this process at all. I'm talking about doing a set.

Failing on a compound movement places a much higher neurlogical (CNS) load than it does muscular wise. The phosphagen system isn't the only system used during training, it includes anaerobic glycolysis as well. Technically if you're depleted of ATP, your short bursts are not where they usually are.

But muscles tiring out is a sense of fatigue and overload, rather than oxygen depletion (we synthesize ATP during our rest intervals).

He says, after 3 minutes rest between sets the muscles are recovered with all the strength they'll have back until they have long periods (hours) of rest. But goes on to say that you should wait only one minute where 72% of strength is back and your cardiovascular system has recovered (basically catching your breath). If you do a set after that time then you'll have to recruit new muscle fibers to help lift the weight (still in the say muscle of course) which is what you want. Well I've always been told in powerlifting to wait 3 minutes between sets but if you're trying to get stronger if seems like you'd follow the same principle and work at a diminished strength level to increase it, yes?

This involves myofibril and sacroplasmic intracellular activity. He has the main idea, stating "recruiting new fibers, etc". However it involves rep count as well.

It seems he makes **** up.

I have the book, what page are you on? I want to see his back up advice.

He also says that there's intermuscular fat which is why some bodybuilders look ripped at 12 percent BF while I'd have to be at like 8. True?

No. They're on drugs. Not sure what he's talking about. If you're prone to BF/triglycerides, then why would some maintain only intramuscularly?

Hope this helps. Zir will get on this for ya.

[Freak]

Complementary aminos don't have to be eaten in the same meal; it can be over a 24hr period due to the amino acid pool.

[MikeNYY420]

Complementary?

And KM, he said that the reason for fatique is the lack of oxygen and a fuel source and that the exercise is so intense that we can't possibly give enough oxygen to the muscles. Not sure what page that's on.

The page he talks about rest intervals is page 148, not sure where the oxygen thing is that's back farther.

So my idea of taking more breaths wouldn't decrease the fatique process?

Wait intermuscular fat... wtf fat's on the outside of muscles not in them, maybe he's refering to water and glycogen stores making muscles look big??? No idea.

**** the hardest part for me in learning is all these new words, I'll look em up though.

[Tripower]

Rest periods ultimately depend on your training objectives...the longer you rest, you steer away from a hypertrophic effect and lean towards development of strength and muscular power, which is essentially development of your contraction speed. The less time you recover, more fibres are recruited, increasing hypertrophy....as KM stated rep range also plays a part.


Awesome thread boys, I am eating this up. Can't wait for zir...

[ZiR RED]

Mike: I'm in the exercise science masters program at springfield college with a focus in strength and conditioning.

What you are trying to learn about is human bioenergetics and cellular metabolism. Arnold's book is filled misinformation that is further confusing you.

A good book to learn about bioenergetics in detail is:
Bioenergetics Primer for Exercise Science - Human Kinetics

Another good book (we actually use this in one of my classes), and a great one just to keep on hand as a reference, is the essentials of strength and conditioning. This will cover the basics of bioenergetics, as well as some anatomy, physiology and kinies.
NSCA Certification:

Br

[ZiR RED]

Originally Posted by Tripower

Rest periods ultimately depend on your training objectives...the longer you rest, you steer away from a hypertrophic effect and lean towards development of strength and muscular power, which is essentially development of your contraction speed. The less time you recover, more fibres are recruited, increasing hypertrophy....as KM stated rep range also plays a part.


Awesome thread boys, I am eating this up. Can't wait for zir...

You are partially right. Shorter rest periods are associated with a greater acute increase in plasma GH.

However, shorter rest periods do not result in a greater fiber recruitment. Shorter rest periods increase the production of lactic acid by not allowing for full phosphagen recovery (it uses the anaerobic glycolytic system to rebuild ATP) and increased levels in lactate are thought to result in an increase in acute GH.

Fiber recruitment follows the size-recruitment principle. The greater the force that must be generated, the more and greater number of fibers will be recruited. Of course, this plays only a small part in hypertrophy.

Br

[MikeNYY420]

I'm gonna really disect all this info tonight and learn a **** ton. Exercise science, I know that there are exercise scientists which I was considering college for and it sounds like that's the course I'd need. I'm thinking of being a nutritionist, physical theripist or exercise scientist, the latter being, I'm sure the most difficult, but will be interesting and I'd love to do that.


Thanks for the info guys, I'll just read this book for fun in spare time and ask you all about what he says.

And Zir I'll be getting those books soon for sure, is the reading in them using words that are more college lever? Because I have trouble understanding a lot of your post haha, so I think an entire book and words that I have to look up might make it kinda hard to read.

Still can't wait to get them though.

[tim290280]

Originally Posted by ZiR RED

Mike: I'm in the exercise science masters program at springfield college with a focus in strength and conditioning.

What you are trying to learn about is human bioenergetics and cellular metabolism. Arnold's book is filled misinformation that is further confusing you.

A good book to learn about bioenergetics in detail is:
Bioenergetics Primer for Exercise Science - Human Kinetics

Another good book (we actually use this in one of my classes), and a great one just to keep on hand as a reference, is the essentials of strength and conditioning. This will cover the basics of bioenergetics, as well as some anatomy, physiology and kinies.
NSCA Certification:

Br

To add to the list of good books:
Science and Practice of Strength Training by Vladimir Zatiorsky
Supertraining by Mell Siff (if you can find it)
Any of WJ Kraemer's books

But they are definitely more science texts. If you aren't well grounded in the field these may be more confusing than helpful, in which case you'd be better off going to the more general texts by the strength coaches around the traps.

[MikeNYY420]

Well I do know a fair amount but by no means as much as you guys do. I think I have a good background though and can prolly make sense of most books.

[KM]

Originally Posted by MikeNYY420

Well I do know a fair amount but by no means as much as you guys do. I think I have a good background though and can prolly make sense of most books.

Try to view and find the book previews of the one's mentioned. Try amazon, before you go out spending 40-100$ on a book might as well know what you're getting into.

[MikeNYY420]

Very true, I'll do that right now.

[MikeNYY420]

DAmn Zir, you're not messing around these are serious and good books.

[tim290280]

Originally Posted by KM

Try to view and find the book previews of the one's mentioned. Try amazon, before you go out spending 40-100$ on a book might as well know what you're getting into.

Aside from Supertraining most books will be on Google Books so you should be able to see inside them to get a feel for the info.

[Freak]

Exactly Tim!! Glad you mentioned it. And if you want the books definitely use: dealoz.com it searches many places for books. Just got a brand new diabetes textbook for $14 when amazon was charging 239 for the same thing. Unbelievable..

[MikeNYY420]

239 bucks for a textbook?! It better be gold plated for that price.

[Freak]

Nope just hardcover and 1400 pages all on diabetes.

[MikeNYY420]

Oh **** nevermind then haha. Hey Freak, while I have you here can you tell me if it's okay for a meal to take like an hour to fully eat because I'm a veeery slow eater. I figure it'd be ok since that's just a even steadier steam of nutrients, but gotta ask. Also do you need to worry about grouping up a meal or can I have a can of tuna now and some veggies in a half and hour and some peanuts in 20 minutes?

[KM]

Originally Posted by MikeNYY420

Oh **** nevermind then haha. Hey Freak, while I have you here can you tell me if it's okay for a meal to take like an hour to fully eat because I'm a veeery slow eater. I figure it'd be ok since that's just a even steadier steam of nutrients, but gotta ask. Also do you need to worry about grouping up a meal or can I have a can of tuna now and some veggies in a half and hour and some peanuts in 20 minutes?

Dog. We're twins.

I'm just as slow, so I binge eat because of it. I'm slow, plus usually have 2 plate fulls of food ready to be pounded. I finish within 30-40min though. I'd try to stick to that. Try to maintain calorie dense foods, it'll help you speed along.

Eating becomes a hobby.

[MikeNYY420]

Haha, right, yeah man I'll try to stick to calorie dense foods like you say. But sometimes to get the vitamins and stuff you need veggies and that sort of stuff.

[Freak]

Yeah Mike you can eat like that. I'm a slow eater too. Right KM eating does become a hobby you feel like you have to have the mentality of the obese just to make it through a day then you get to thinking you are eating too much. Just a mind game ya know. I've focused a lot lately on finding ways to speed up my meals.