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Old 10-08-2008, 10:17 PM   #1
MikeNYY420
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Alright guys, so I'm reading the Encycloperdia of Bodybuilding, by Arnold. And it's 750+ pages long I'm about 1/7 through and have been taking notes and have some questions of them here they are.

First, what in the hell is oxidation, I've heard different things and heres what I've gathered, it's the process of burning, burning oxygen and ATP is the muscles case or in other cases another fuel source. Correct?

Second, Lipids, their stored fat correct?

Thrid, Arnold says that soreness is a way to tell that you had a good workout, but that the sorenesss comes from lactic acid building up faster than the cardiovascular system can process/take them out of the muscles. I've also heard that it comes from new exercises and introducing new things to the muscles and that it's not anything to do with a good workout unless it's a slight amount. I'm about 95% sure that he's talking about DOMS cause he talks about the days after too. Question is, is the reason that he says this because it's good to shock the muscle with new exercises? I think he's talking about everytime though so kind of unsure.

Also he says that negatives cause more soreness because of the extra stress on the ligaments and tendons. Is there also extra stress on the muscles resulting in strengthening or only on the tendons and ligaments resulting in their strengthening?

Fourth, he says that you should train through a small degree of soreness because getting a pump and the all the blood coming to the muscle that the pump involves will help clear the lactic acid- that's apparently still in the muscle still causing the soreness-I've always been told not to train through soreness. Science based information either way please?

Fifth, "The process of contracting a muscle involves the process of oxidation- in effect, a form of burning, which is why we say you burn calories (create heat by the release of energy) when you exercise. Oxidation requires both a source of fuel (in the muscle, this is ATP) and oxygen. Whenever fuel or oxygen is in too short supply, the muscle fibers can't contract until they are replenished as you rest and recuperate."

When for one can someone explain that^ paragraph to me? Also he says ATP, but ATP is only used for short bursts of 3 seconds (Or was is 5?) and a set lasts longer than that, so what it be correct to say the source of fuel is ADP also?

Bill Pearl was a vegetarian bodybuilder. Though his development wasn't as good as others he still did have a great physique. Do you think the lack of essential aminos found in animal sources could be a reason for this. How big of an impact does not having those be on your body?

That's it so far I'll have more questions of my multiple pages of notes later.


Thanks so much guys!
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:47 AM   #2
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There is an art to lifting, and a science to lifting...your enthusiasm for learning is great (yes, I do own the ency.), but I honestly wouldn't worry about a lot of the science portion for right now. Eating right, lifting clean, and staying healthy are the most important things. Listen to your body and lift reasonably (PLEASE don't ever be "that guy"). Notice I didn't say LIGHT but reasonable...you seem knowledgeable enough to understand that difference though it seems. Good luck!


Oh yeah, don't do drugs, say your prayers, and take your vitamins!
 
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:42 AM   #3
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damn dude you ask some preety good question on ur post very intresting on all the sorness stuff like to see what people will put
 
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:01 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNYY420 View Post
Thrid, Arnold says that soreness is a way to tell that you had a good workout, but that the sorenesss comes from lactic acid building up faster than the cardiovascular system can process/take them out of the muscles. I've also heard that it comes from new exercises and introducing new things to the muscles and that it's not anything to do with a good workout unless it's a slight amount. I'm about 95% sure that he's talking about DOMS cause he talks about the days after too. Question is, is the reason that he says this because it's good to shock the muscle with new exercises? I think he's talking about everytime though so kind of unsure.
Arnold Ency is a good book but usually contains outdated info.

DOMS, based on readings, is quite the opposite if we're talking hypertrophic gains, which I'm sure Arnold is. Lactic acid as little involvement in DOMS; it is microdamage to the cell membrane. You can cause this with slow negatives, new fiberal patterns and poor conditioning. It reduces protein synthesis because of energy demands to membrane healing.

Quote:
Fourth, he says that you should train through a small degree of soreness because getting a pump and the all the blood coming to the muscle that the pump involves will help clear the lactic acid- that's apparently still in the muscle still causing the soreness-I've always been told not to train through soreness. Science based information either way please?
DOMS has little affiliation towards a "pump". Based on the info I stated above, if you continue to train synergistic bodyparts and assistant bodyparts for a certain lift, you will not allow complete recovery of the sacrolemma which further your DOMS and put you back farther.

Quote:
Fifth, "The process of contracting a muscle involves the process of oxidation- in effect, a form of burning, which is why we say you burn calories (create heat by the release of energy) when you exercise. Oxidation requires both a source of fuel (in the muscle, this is ATP) and oxygen. Whenever fuel or oxygen is in too short supply, the muscle fibers can't contract until they are replenished as you rest and recuperate."
This involves the phosphagen system, as I remember someone explaining to you. The burn is caused by a drop of the pH of the blood drops when oxygen is not present. Oxygen is needed within the contractile proteins.

The part about oxidation and calorie incinerating I can't help you on. I've never heard of it..

Quote:
When for one can someone explain that^ paragraph to me? Also he says ATP, but ATP is only used for short bursts of 3 seconds (Or was is 5?) and a set lasts longer than that, so what it be correct to say the source of fuel is ADP also?
The ATP system can yield energy for up to 15sec there abouts. 3-5 seconds he might be explaining the phosphocreatine separation, and so on.
Quote:
Bill Pearl was a vegetarian bodybuilder. Though his development wasn't as good as others he still did have a great physique. Do you think the lack of essential aminos found in animal sources could be a reason for this. How big of an impact does not having those be on your body?
He needs complete protein sources, aka, carrying those EAA's for muscle girth. Without it muscle repair will be slow or non existent. (Hence: whey protein, search ingredients).

That's all I can do bro, others will chime in I'm sure.

Great questions! Keep doing damage knowledge wise.
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:03 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stateofmind25 View Post
There is an art to lifting, and a science to lifting...your enthusiasm for learning is great (yes, I do own the ency.), but I honestly wouldn't worry about a lot of the science portion for right now. Eating right, lifting clean, and staying healthy are the most important things. Listen to your body and lift reasonably (PLEASE don't ever be "that guy"). Notice I didn't say LIGHT but reasonable...you seem knowledgeable enough to understand that difference though it seems. Good luck!


Oh yeah, don't do drugs, say your prayers, and take your vitamins!
Do not steer someone away from learning the science about the support. The progress hes made mental and physical is outstanding, something not say "dont worry about it and so on".
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Old 10-09-2008, 05:49 AM   #6
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KM has already covered things well but I'll add a few bits and pieces.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeNYY420 View Post
Alright guys, so I'm reading the Encycloperdia of Bodybuilding, by Arnold. And it's 750+ pages long I'm about 1/7 through and have been taking notes and have some questions of them here they are.
I own Arnies book too, but it isn't the be all and end all. He did a lot of things right without really knowing why, but he also did a lot wrong. Try and read a few other books as well (Riptoe's Starting Strength, I think Cressey's new Maximum Strength could be good too).
Quote:
First, what in the hell is oxidation, I've heard different things and heres what I've gathered, it's the process of burning, burning oxygen and ATP is the muscles case or in other cases another fuel source. Correct?
Oxidation is literally burning in oxygen.
Quote:
Second, Lipids, their stored fat correct?
yes
Quote:
Thrid, Arnold says that soreness is a way to tell that you had a good workout, but that the sorenesss comes from lactic acid building up faster than the cardiovascular system can process/take them out of the muscles. I've also heard that it comes from new exercises and introducing new things to the muscles and that it's not anything to do with a good workout unless it's a slight amount. I'm about 95% sure that he's talking about DOMS cause he talks about the days after too. Question is, is the reason that he says this because it's good to shock the muscle with new exercises? I think he's talking about everytime though so kind of unsure.
DOMS is not a good measure of muscle recruitment or progress. There are some studies around showing that G2 DOMS (painfull when you move) is actually holding back your recovery.
Quote:
Also he says that negatives cause more soreness because of the extra stress on the ligaments and tendons. Is there also extra stress on the muscles resulting in strengthening or only on the tendons and ligaments resulting in their strengthening?
Negatives are associated with higher levels of DOMS because you aren't contracting against the weight, rather releasing your contraction, which allows more fibre damage. You can also usually use higher loads on the eccentric so that is where the tendon and ligament strengthening can come in, as the old time lifters swore by isometric holds and high loads for this. Although the only work I have seen on T&L strengthening has it occurring at higher rep ranges, not under heavier loads. Also T&L take longer to "hypertrophy" than muscles. Can post more on eccentrics if you like.
Quote:
Fourth, he says that you should train through a small degree of soreness because getting a pump and the all the blood coming to the muscle that the pump involves will help clear the lactic acid- that's apparently still in the muscle still causing the soreness-I've always been told not to train through soreness. Science based information either way please?
Depends on the level of soreness. Mild soreness this works, but it has to be lighter and not necessarily a pump as much as activity. THe Japanese occlusion work (arms and calves being wrapped tight to not allow blood removal) was based on this principle.
Quote:
Fifth, "The process of contracting a muscle involves the process of oxidation- in effect, a form of burning, which is why we say you burn calories (create heat by the release of energy) when you exercise. Oxidation requires both a source of fuel (in the muscle, this is ATP) and oxygen. Whenever fuel or oxygen is in too short supply, the muscle fibers can't contract until they are replenished as you rest and recuperate."

When for one can someone explain that^ paragraph to me? Also he says ATP, but ATP is only used for short bursts of 3 seconds (Or was is 5?) and a set lasts longer than that, so what it be correct to say the source of fuel is ADP also?
Um depends on the activity. Aerobic systems rely on oxygen, anerobic don't. Still burning energy but your anerobic glycolosis is the short burst, high power system that doesn't need oxygen.
Quote:
Bill Pearl was a vegetarian bodybuilder. Though his development wasn't as good as others he still did have a great physique. Do you think the lack of essential aminos found in animal sources could be a reason for this. How big of an impact does not having those be on your body?
Bill Pearl was training in an age when he wasn't competing as a BBer but rather a Physique Athlete. They never tried to get that lean (competed at ~8-9%) and were often weight lifters and the like.

Also you don't lack for essential aminos just because you are vegetarian. What you lack for is complete proteins. THis means you have to source your aminos from various sources in the same meal in order to get a complete profile (I'm pretty sure Arnie covers this). As long as you have some animal sources (eggs, fish, dairy), which is common for vegetarians (lacto-ovo-vegetarians anyone?) then you can get the aminos that are only present in animal sources. Now Vegans are a different story. Either way you don't see vegans dropping dead as their bodies recycle aminos, and they get just enough from soy (which is regarded as a complete protein, although I was to understand it wasn't but has the aminos other plant based products don't have that animal sources do).
 
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Old 10-09-2008, 07:05 AM   #7
MikeNYY420
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Km and Tim thanks for the answers! Great info I'll have to write some of this down too. It sucks that some info's outdated shit.

And Kev I think it was Freak and Zir that have told me about oxidation, it's pretty confusing, but I'm understanding it. I remember Zir saying though that ATP lasts something like 5 seconds before at 9 seconds ADP is used?

I guess my question in the Bill Pearl example was more of can you get all of the essential aminos from only plant sources? Do some plants have say leucine and others have isoleusine?
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Powerlifting is my sport/ passion.

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Deadlift: 345
Bench :215
Squat:270

Goals
Deadlift: 380 by February 1st
Bench: 250 by February 1st
Squat:300 by February 1st

Work smarter not harder.

Road to my goals--->http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...8-road-my.html
 
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Old 10-09-2008, 08:25 AM   #8
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I'll have to come back to this later today. I love Arnold, but take the book and use it as a coffee table ornament.

A few quick notes:

Lactic acid takes about 1-2 hours to clear, it has nothing to do with DOMS.
Oxidization (aerobic) is the energy system used for endurance events or while you are at rest. During resistance training, you are employing the anaerobic systems.

Br
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Old 10-09-2008, 02:16 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZiR RED View Post
I'll have to come back to this later today. I love Arnold, but take the book and use it as a coffee table ornament.
Hey Zir,
I was thinking about purchasing arnies encyclopedia but as it seems to be quite outdated do you know of any similar books to do with muscle physiology etc relating to bodybuilding that are more up to date and reliable.Any help in trying to quench my thirst for knowledge is greatly appreciated!
Thanks, Gamble
 
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Old 10-09-2008, 04:19 PM   #10
MikeNYY420
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^ Yeah I'd like to get a better one, maybe some type of college textbook?

Damn so it sounds like he really does know all of what he talks about. Shit. I'll still read the book but double check all the new info on here.

Zir what's your major in college, cuz I remember you talking about listening this type of stuff in school. I'm interested in learning about and possibly majoring in some type of exercise or nutrition courses.

I had a couple more questions after reading another hundred or so pages today.

He says biceps are the fastest recovering muscles and lower back takes the longest, true or no?

He also says that muscles tire from running out of oxygen and fuel, ATP. So my question is will breathing extremely heavy and deep slow down this process at all. I'm talking about doing a set.

He says, after 3 minutes rest between sets the muscles are recovered with all the strength they'll have back until they have long periods (hours) of rest. But goes on to say that you should wait only one minute where 72% of strength is back and your cardiovascular system has recovered (basically catching your breath). If you do a set after that time then you'll have to recruit new muscle fibers to help lift the weight (still in the say muscle of course) which is what you want. Well I've always been told in powerlifting to wait 3 minutes between sets but if you're trying to get stronger if seems like you'd follow the same principle and work at a diminished strength level to increase it, yes?

He also says that there's intermuscular fat which is why some bodybuilders look ripped at 12 percent BF while I'd have to be at like 8. True?
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Powerlifting is my sport/ passion.

Now

Deadlift: 345
Bench :215
Squat:270

Goals
Deadlift: 380 by February 1st
Bench: 250 by February 1st
Squat:300 by February 1st

Work smarter not harder.

Road to my goals--->http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...8-road-my.html
 
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