[Liquidyolk]

Hi all absoutly love this place!, wondering what everyones thoughts are on going to failiure every seesion, without stating obvious de-laoding phases.

I have been thinking recenlty about the way I go to failiure on every workout or you could say the second/last set of my sets, I recall reading that not every workout should go failiure and some only go to failiure maybe 1 in 2 to 3 cycles, lets say just to be round-a-bout I workout a set that would consist of 10 reps so that on my 4 set I would fail at 8-10 reps, that is going through pain to get there, I do this consistently for nearly every set and come out the gym feeling blasted on every session, (but I do de-load around the third cycle).

How do others workout if you’re not going to failiure on every session, is it like if you had a set that you would fail at 12 reps you only do 10 then say 1 in three weeks go to failiure?

[mac-attack]

interesting post.

had this conversation taday with an olympic lifter. he stated that going to failure every time is not good. apparently it inhibits muscle growth. once every 4 weeks, he recommends. However, i like going to failure on a few things too: preacher hammer curls set of 10, followed by another set of 10, followed by max out with a slightly lighter weight. Same as a bench session these days... I load the bar up with 5kg plates and max out, take a plate off either side, max out, take plates of again, and so on. GREAT PUMP! but, it is not graet for growth on a constant basis, I was told. hope this helps somewhat, let's see what everybody else thinks.

[ZiR RED]

We really need to differentiate what kind of exercises you are taking to failure.

A set of curls to failure will have a much different physiological effect than a set of squats or deadlifts to failure.

Then, we can discuss the differences between systematic over training (like CNS drain, neural fatigue) and local over training (training your biceps every day).

Lastly, there are benefits to taking sets to failure, including increases in the surface area of the neuromuscular junction.

Br

[Luscious Lou]

how do u get anywhere or any gains if u dont push yourself?? i train to failure on everything i do. i cant imagine making any progress just moving weights around with my thumb up my ass and not feeling any discomfort. wuts the point of that?

[Power12]

Its impossible, nobody does this. You would just burn yourself out and make yourself sick.

[Luscious Lou]

correction! i do it and feel phenominal, seperates the boys from the men

[ZiR RED]

Originally Posted by Luscious Lou

how do u get anywhere or any gains if u dont push yourself?? i train to failure on everything i do. i cant imagine making any progress just moving weights around with my thumb up my ass and not feeling any discomfort. wuts the point of that?

Who's to say I don't push myself? Or I don't push my clients/they don't push themselves?

Besides the perceived level of exertion, and the impaired CNS recovery time, the difference in overload between taking a set to failure and not taking a set to failure is minimal. Furthermore, if you are performing multiple sets, then you induce more overload by NOT taking your sets to failure.

Br

[Luscious Lou]

how can u say u pushed urself still knowing u had more left in you?? for example, u hit 8 reps with a certain weight on some exercise and u still had more left in the tank and probably coulda done 10 reps had u taken it to failure, then the next week u do 10 reps and ur under the impression that you've gotten stronger when u really just held back the last workout. how is this an accurate way to measure ur strength progress or weight gain, bcuz u prolly coulda gained more had u taken it to failure and recovered properly

[ZiR RED]

Then I pose this question: How can you perform 35 working sets in a session and expect to recover correctly for another in 48 hours when every set is taken to failure and your CNS is drained?

We are running a course straight into a debate consisting of anecdotal jargon, a versus of "I do this and this happens so this must be true", a debate I personally don't have the time, ambition, nor patience to take part in, since there is no distinct line to draw a winner.

That said, I'd like to discus some basic efferent nerve physiology, specifically those in the CNS and how it applies to over training, overload and hypertrophy.

First, a quick, basic background on how a muscle cell fibers. Most nuerons (nerve cells) carry a -70mv charge with a threshold for excitation at an average of -55mv. When a message is sent, sodium rushes into the nerve cell increasing the charge and causing the cell to fire upon the next cell. This occurs along the nerve path until it reaches the muscle, where the final motor nueron fires, and if the "firing" is strong enough, the muscle contracts.

Everytime a nerve fires, its threshold for excitation is increased, and a stronger stimulus (from the previous nerve) must be applied for it to fire. It takes time and energy for the neuron to pump out the sodium to return to its orriginal charge.

Now consider this along your entire CNS, from spinal column to motor nerves, triggering millions of motor units (groups of muscle fibers) to contract when performing a back squat.

Now imagine performing that back squat to true failure, how frequent the nuerons must fire (and with what intensity) on the final set to "squeeze" out that final rep, how high their threshold for excitation has increased and how much of a stimuli must be applied in order to keep the muscle fibers firing. How would you feel if i told you to run 10x100 yard sprints at 100% intensity with a 1:1 work to rest ratio!

Now consider the pumping period and the energy needed to pump the sodium out, the potassium back in, and regain a charge of -70mv in each cell. Apply this over 3-5 training sessions per week, taking compound movements to failure and you can see how the potential for CNS over training drastically increases.

On top of this, the microtrauma caused by negatives, forced reps, drops sets, etc. causes the release of inflamatory cyotkines into your body which circulates and attaches to receptors on your CNS impeding neural recovery. Generally this microtrauma is relative to the volume of negatives performed (this is why eccentric movements are mainly responsible for DOMS).

There's even more to this, like excess build up potassium ions at neuromuscular junction and excess release of calcium inside the muscle cell causing it to be less sensitive to nerve impulses (think drinking to intoxication for a few weeks straight then trying to get drunk off what you were able to before that binge).

Br

[illnino]

1 persons defintion of failure is different to another persons. dorian yates for example is what you would call true failure haha.

why not just lift the weight about 10 times untill the last rep is quite a struggle. next time u come in add more weight and repeat. either way your still progressing with weight. weight progression = muscle gains.

[Luscious Lou]

Originally Posted by ZiR RED

Then I pose this question: How can you perform 35 working sets in a session and expect to recover correctly for another in 48 hours when every set is taken to failure and your CNS is drained?

We are running a course straight into a debate consisting of anecdotal jargon, a versus of "I do this and this happens so this must be true", a debate I personally don't have the time, ambition, nor patience to take part in, since there is no distinct line to draw a winner.

That said, I'd like to discus some basic efferent nerve physiology, specifically those in the CNS and how it applies to over training, overload and hypertrophy.

First, a quick, basic background on how a muscle cell fibers. Most nuerons (nerve cells) carry a -70mv charge with a threshold for excitation at an average of -55mv. When a message is sent, sodium rushes into the nerve cell increasing the charge and causing the cell to fire upon the next cell. This occurs along the nerve path until it reaches the muscle, where the final motor nueron fires, and if the "firing" is strong enough, the muscle contracts.

Everytime a nerve fires, its threshold for excitation is increased, and a stronger stimulus (from the previous nerve) must be applied for it to fire. It takes time and energy for the neuron to pump out the sodium to return to its orriginal charge.

Now consider this along your entire CNS, from spinal column to motor nerves, triggering millions of motor units (groups of muscle fibers) to contract when performing a back squat.

Now imagine performing that back squat to true failure, how frequent the nuerons must fire (and with what intensity) on the final set to "squeeze" out that final rep, how high their threshold for excitation has increased and how much of a stimuli must be applied in order to keep the muscle fibers firing. How would you feel if i told you to run 10x100 yard sprints at 100% intensity with a 1:1 work to rest ratio!

Now consider the pumping period and the energy needed to pump the sodium out, the potassium back in, and regain a charge of -70mv in each cell. Apply this over 3-5 training sessions per week, taking compound movements to failure and you can see how the potential for CNS over training drastically increases.

On top of this, the microtrauma caused by negatives, forced reps, drops sets, etc. causes the release of inflamatory cyotkines into your body which circulates and attaches to receptors on your CNS impeding neural recovery. Generally this microtrauma is relative to the volume of negatives performed (this is why eccentric movements are mainly responsible for DOMS).

There's even more to this, like excess build up potassium ions at neuromuscular junction and excess release of calcium inside the muscle cell causing it to be less sensitive to nerve impulses (think drinking to intoxication for a few weeks straight then trying to get drunk off what you were able to before that binge).

Br

alrite, correct me if im wrong, but ur saying that by taking it to failure all the time, its harder for one to stimulate the muscle right each progessive time they hit the iron? so when u take it to failure ur ensuring that u've pushed beyond ur limits that u were previously accustomed to, so now that u've sufficiently brokedown the muscle, all u need to do now is rest and recooperate enough. hence why some ppl say that the stronger u get and heavier weights u lift, the LONGER u need to rest so ur CNS and muscles can repair themselves and u can eventually trigger muscle growth(provided ur diet is sufficient)