[richoart]

Hi, Ive found lately that im really quite sore after workouts, even 3-4 days later, sometimes even 5. This really has questions as to whether i'm over-training, because when i go from a chest day to a back day, a lot of the exercises for back use chest as stabilizer muscles and crap.
my split. (btw its a four day split)

Sunday legs:
squats 4 sets, 2-6 reps
SLDL 4 sets, 6-8
front squats 3 sets, 6-10
leg press 3 sets, 6-10
hamstring curls 3 sets, 8-15
(lying)
leg extensions 3 sets, 12-20
standing calf raises 3 sets, 6-12
(superset with)
seated calf raises 3 sets, 8-20

Monday shoulders + arms:
Db overhead presses 4 sets, 5-12
front raises 3 sets, 8-12 (sometimes bent over side raises)
standing side raises 3 sets, 8-15
barbell curls 3 sets, 6-10
(superset with)
reverse grip cable push downs 3 sets, 8-15

Wednesday Chest + triceps:
BB bench 4 sets, 4-8
DB incline bench 3 sets, 6-10
flat pec flyes 3 sets, 8-15
Close grip bench 3 sets, 6-10

Friday Back + Biceps:
Wide grip pullups 3 sets, 12-15 (In reality i can only do about 5 lol :-)
deadlifts 4-5 sets, 3-6
lat pulldowns 3 sets, 8-15
Prone curls 2-3 sets, 10-20
OH cable curls 1 set, 15-30

As you can see I do train bi's and tri's twice, but thats because i dont really hit them that hard on either of the days. They seem to cope well and recover after a days rest. However my main problem is things like shoulders and chest, Once ive done my shoudler day my front shoulders r sore and dont seem to recover enough for the chest day, and then chest day im really quite sore and when it comes to back day and movements liek lat pulldowns and wide grip pull ups I still feel sore in my pecs. Is this over training? and how do i recover faster?
what i usually eat:

school weekdays: (all bread is wholemeal unless stated)
1: 3 yolks, 7 whites scrambled, very little shaved cheese,
2 slices of toast, plus a banana most days and sometimes a protein shake
2: Protein shake, banana, and sometimes a peanut butter sandwhich.
3: 2 Tuna sandwiches ( i use 500g tins of tuna and go thru about 1 and a 1/2 for 4 sandwiches but alot of the weight is brine or water which i drain. there should be enough protein in the 2 sandwiches)
4: 2 Tuna sandwiches
5: Training days:
Preworkout shake
some sort of carbo drink for during workout
postworkout shake plus some carbo drink
6: meat: chicken, beef, kangaroo, etc
4 slices of toast or brown rice or if im lucky wheat pasta
(toast for dinner usually has nuttlex on it, Im bulking )
broccolli
On training days I add some extra white carbs, such as white pasta
Or white toast, potatos etc
7: Protein shake (fucking still waiting on my ordered casein... )
banana
(On weekends the diet is the same except for the sandwiches which are replaced with meat like chicken and carbs)

Now thats my food and i'll say the sups i use cause i really wanna know anything else i can do to recover faster.

daily:
blackmores or lately AST multivitamin
flaxseeds
500mg vit c tablet
optimum whey protein
(waiting on the casein protein still..)
Training days only:
horleys replace (carbs)
stimulant (preworkout) (due to it being a stimulant it changes often, currently on nutrabolics deca stack)
nutrabolics anabolic window (postworkout)

I just got some glutamine which i plan on adding one serve after training. hopefully this will help also the optimum whey protein has 5.5g of bcaa's so dont say add bcaa's.

Sorry its so long winded but I just want to know, my split seems to be fine but what could i add in the way of recovery because i finding myself continuely feeling sore for longer periods then usual. I'm 17 and have been training for over 2 yrs if this means anything, Ive taken a week off only a month ago to let my muslces regroup but lately ive started having prolonged soreness in my shoulders and pecs, for anywhere between 3-5 days. what do i do?

thanks

[captainplanet]

The problem could lie not with how your training your certain muscle groups, just when your training them. For example; two days before you blast chest, your training two stabilizer muscles for your chest. Your shoulders and you do one tricep exercise. This may not seem like it will do much, but sometimes it really does. You do have a day off in between, but this isn't enough time for those shoulders to recover before you train chest. May I suggest a split ordered like this......

Sunday: Legs
Monday: Chest, tris
Tues: Back, Bis
Wed: off
Thurs: Shoulders
Friday: repeat day one, which would be legs

Another thing, if your having trouble with leg soreness, you can split that day up into two days: one being quads and seated calves and two being hams and standing calves.
The added glutamine supplement should help as well. Hope this helps in some way

[MikeNYY420]

I think on some days your overtraining just looking at this. Mainly leg day, maybe take out leg curls because your hamstrings are being worked alot with SLDL. You should try doing chest and shoulders on the same day since for alot of pec exercises your using shoulders anyway.

Maybe try just a 3 day split and get rid of bi and tri day and just stay with chest shoulders tris and back and bis. Also make sure you get 8-10 hours of rest and eat lots of protein. Defitently sounds like overtraining though so see if this helps.

[richoart]

I really don't think im over training on my leg day, seeing as it is only 12 sets or so quads and even less hammies, 6 sets for calves and they are only superseted which means the second superset is less weight, theretically. (of course im getting 8-10 hr sleep... lol) SLDL is only 4 sets of hamstrings, there is really onlt 2 excercises that target hamstrings on leg day. (I dont always do leg press, only depends if i feel like im going to chuck). thanks for the comments, Im gonan change my split a little i guess, but captain planet i dunno how u can train back after chest because half the excercises for back (lat pulldown and pull ups) use the chest to a certain extent.
thanks anyways

[captainplanet]

Actually if you do the exercises correctly absolutley none of the effective exercises for back use chest as a secondary mover. Maybe you need to check your form. With lat pulldowns the focus is on pulling stricly with your lats, same thing with wide grip chins, or bent over rows, or barbell rows, or well any back exercise for that matter, if you feel anything in your chest when you train back, more than likely your not doing the exercise correctly. If for whatever reason you still feel like your over training or have extensive soreness in your chest when you train your back the next day, try training chest and back together, then arms the next day. You just gotta find what works for you

[richoart]

ive done legs split before and i didnt really like it that much, but i guess ill give it another go.
sun: quads, calves,

mon: chest tri's

wed: shoulders hams calves

fri: back bi's

should be (y)

btw i think my form is perfectly fine, if uve ever seen any pro bodybuilders there form when they start there bigger weights is fairly questionable, but it works for them, if you stick to 100% form you are never going to get any weight up.

[captainplanet]

Yeah it works for them because their on gear. You take natural guys like you and me and if we start throwin around a ton of weight with poor form, were going to get hurt. Either way their not using their chest when training back. I can't even think of a way to use chest while training back, other than on chins, but even then its minimal.

[thenewbreed]

first of your order is bery suspect legs then delts wth triceps and biceps
then ch est after you have already olworn out delts and arms then tri's again? wholy crap ! muscles need a minimum of 48 hours to heal. try this on for size: first off every thing one time a week. only once

ex: 4 sets 6-12 reps for each

1: chest: dumbell incline press,barbell bench press,flyes,pullovers

2: back/calves: chinups,barbell row,dumbell row,wide pulldown] seated raise,standing raise

3: delts/traps: seated dumbell press,bentover lateral,barbell front raises] upright row, dumbell shrugs

4: quads/hams: barbell squat, leg press ,lunges, sissy squat/ leg curl, stiff leg deadlift

5: bis/tris: barbell curl superset w/ skull crusher, incline dumbell curl superset w/ dips, pressdown

6: abs/cardio 20-30 minutes on statioary bike followed by bench crunch,incline situps, rope cruch ended with machine crunch

7- sleep, sleep eat then rest some more




7: rest:

[richoart]

lol my form is fine. and newbread, dude thats 6 times a week...how was my legs then delts splitas suspect as yours.. thats even worse of a split then i had at the beginning....chest, back then delts... back then delts how do u not overtrain delts right there. then wen u do alot of back work traps get hammered but uve got traps the next day.
have u guys ever hammered your chest hard? 3 excercises 3 sets of each its impossible to do a good back workout the next day...my form is good for all excercises and when it comes to lat pulldowns you do use your pec muscles your pectorials minor come into the movement.
from another site its a Synergist.
"A muscle that assists another muscle to accomplish a movement."

[thenewbreed]

worked for me i gained over 60 lbs of muscle on it. to fully understand it u need to understand anatomy and basic kinseiology
with your training method you were training the same muscle two days in a row. by training one a day until you complete a week you give the muscles a week to recover and volume is necc. to achieve this also the traps muscle fibers are much tougher fibers such as calves i have never had soreness it my upper traps following a back workout. i dedicate each session to 1 large muscle and only once a week i destroy that muscle then...rebuild it with proper nutrition i have only been training for 1.5 years and have made substantial gains. at the start i was only doing 6 sets a bodypart as time and your tolerance changes you need to increase your workload. im a staunch believer in this method. volume training has made the most champions

[thenewbreed]

12 sets once a week for a large muscle group is fine and 6-9 for a smaller one is fine also i do about 8 for biceps or calves. as far as traps or calve or even forearms for that matter go you can train them for 2-3 times a week. muscles with weaker fibers ie: biceps, triceps wich you are training 2 days in a row will inhibt your growth

[richoart]

but i wasnt training biceps or triceps 2 days in a row
triceps had a days break and biceps had 2 days break, my tricep routein on both days was only 2-3 sets, id go heavy on chest and then blast triceps with some light sets.

[thenewbreed]

why do something twice when you can accomplish it at once? obviously the program is not effective otherwise we would not be discussing it now. this forum is for advise. if you dont like mine ...simply dont use it. but try it before you knock it for 90 days then pm me with your results . its worth a shot right? good luck bro