[Half Second]

Check this product out if you're looking for a good BCAA supplement. Each capsule is 1,000mg. Simple.

[Tall HardGainer]

i take it, love it

[CrusaderMuscle]

I've taken them too. They seem pretty good to me. ON is a reputable company.

[Tall HardGainer]

Love ON as a company, great quality supplements.

[PRO41]

Bcaa's in capsule form are not cost effective and are basically a rippoff. Get your bcaa's in bulk powder form instead.

[KM]

Yeah.. ON is great. The powder form of ON's BCAAs were actually really good. I recommend them also

[Half Second]

Originally Posted by PRO41

Bcaa's in capsule form are not cost effective and are basically a rippoff. Get your bcaa's in bulk powder form instead.

the convenience of the capsules constitutes buying them IMO

[Tall HardGainer]

^^cosign, and there is not necessarily a benefit to powder over pill in the case of bcaa's. So it boils down to personal preference, and if there is any advantage it is miniscule, and most powders taste horrible and though I haven't taken ON powder, its not worth taking it when I can take it in pill and its more convenient

[PRO41]

How many of these pills are you guys taking?

[Tall HardGainer]

2 pills, 2-3 times daily. It really is a personal preferene, but I also weigh 250lbs so I try to get in more than other people too.

[PRO41]

Originally Posted by Tall HardGainer

2 pills, 2-3 times daily. It really is a personal preferene, but I also weigh 250lbs so I try to get in more than other people too.

I stand by my original post, in that case, since you are getting virtually nothing out of such a meager dosage, ESPECIALLY for a guy your size. To reap any benefits at all from these pils, a jar would probably last me 3-4 days.

If you are intent on using the paltry amount you currently use, my suggestion would be to save your money and not use bcaa's at all. Unless you buy bulk powder where using 15-20 gr pre, intra, and post workout would make a world of difference.

[Tall HardGainer]

dosage is 1000mg per serving, which is not that shabby of a serving.

[FitnessModel45]

don't take the powdered ON BCAA's trust me.... feels like you're drinking sand lol... it's sooo chalky

[Tall HardGainer]

thats the thing, some supplements don't disolve well, like NO Shotgun, barely disolves and tastes like ****ty sand.

[KM]

GNC products i think their chocolate protein powder should be called Chalklate.

[T.O]

Originally Posted by PRO41

I stand by my original post, in that case, since you are getting virtually nothing out of such a meager dosage, ESPECIALLY for a guy your size. To reap any benefits at all from these pils, a jar would probably last me 3-4 days.

If you are intent on using the paltry amount you currently use, my suggestion would be to save your money and not use bcaa's at all. Unless you buy bulk powder where using 15-20 gr pre, intra, and post workout would make a world of difference.

3-4 days????? Your abusing BCAAs there buddy. Ecspecialy if your taking a good protein powder as well. You can get Optimum Nutrition BCAA,s 200 capsules for $12 dollars. Trust me, thats a pretty dam good bargin. Dont get me wrong I like the powder but if you want to get technical a time released capsule will ensure better absorption vs powder. so 3-4 g of BCAAs is actualy a good average dose pre and post workout, so no hes not taking a meager dose. Thats what I would recomend for him.

[PRO41]

Originally Posted by Teamorbit

3-4 days????? Your abusing BCAAs there buddy. Ecspecialy if your taking a good protein powder as well. You can get Optimum Nutrition BCAA,s 200 capsules for $12 dollars. Trust me, thats a pretty dam good bargin. Dont get me wrong I like the powder but if you want to get technical a time released capsule will ensure better absorption vs powder. so 3-4 g of BCAAs is actualy a good average dose pre and post workout, so no hes not taking a meager dose. Thats what I would recomend for him.

Time released capsule? Abusing bcaa's? LOL.
3-4 gr wouldn't be much even for the sedentary individual.

If you are training with any kind of intensity or purpose, 20-25gr of exogenous bcaa's centered around the workout parameter is close to being effective.

Do some perusing and reading on protein sub-fractions and learn what bcaa's are and how they benefit the bodybuilder and competitive athlete.

Or you can probably drop Layne a PM and ask for his opinion on what you stated up top. His answer might surprise you.

[under construction]

Originally Posted by PRO41

Time released capsule? Abusing bcaa's? LOL.
3-4 gr wouldn't be much even for the sedentary individual.

If you are training with any kind of intensity or purpose, 20-25gr of exogenous bcaa's centered around the workout parameter is close to being effective.

Do some perusing and reading on protein sub-fractions and learn what bcaa's are and how they benefit the bodybuilder and competitive athlete.

Or you can probably drop Layne a PM and ask for his opinion on what you stated up top. His answer might surprise you.

wow Pro41 is this one of your fields of study or are you the ultra enthusiast? Where would you find articles on the sub fractions and how to understand them I would be interested in reading up on this. Thanks

[Tall HardGainer]

yeah me too, not to mention I agree with orbit, a lot of protein shakes contain a good amount of bcaa's and there is no reason to take as much as you are saying. Listen if you like wasting your money then fine, but honestly the amount you are taking isn't giving you any significant advantage then taking a normal dose.

[PRO41]

Here's an excerpt from a Derek Charlebois article explaining why bcaa's on there own, are far more advantageous than what you find in whole foods and shakes:


By: Derek Beast Charlebois

Supplementing With BCAA


What is interesting about the BCAA is their ability to participate in the above metabolic processes, energy substrates, substrates for protein synthesis, precursors for alanine and glutamine, and modulators of protein synthesis, is governed by their availability. Research suggests that first and foremost the BCAA are used for the synthesis of protein structures (Layman, 2003).

Research on leucine shows that once the minimum requirement of leucine for protein synthesis is met leucine can then be used as a precursor for alanine and glutamine or to activate various signaling pathways (Layman, 2003), such as the mTOR pathway. It may sound like leucine is free to exert its powerful effect of mTOR activation, but one must remember that protein breakdown and synthesis is occurring throughout the entire body; the body's protein stores are in a constant state of flux.

The constant body protein flux plus the increased leucine oxidation caused by exercise means that leucine is in high demand and therefore may not be able to participate in muscle growth at its full potential. This is where supplementing with additional BCAA comes into play and importance.

Due to leucine's metabolic properties, many people focus solely on leucine and not the other two BCAAs valine and isoleucine.

Research has shown that leucine-rich diets or administration of leucine alone lead to decreases in valine and isoleucine plasma concentrations and a BCAA imbalance (Shirmomura et al., 2004). While it may be cheaper to supplement with leucine alone instead of all three BCAA, one should supplement with all three BCAA so not to create a BCAA imbalance.

The main question or argument with BCAA supplementation people have is whether additional BCAA supplementation on top of an already high protein intake will produce any benefits, specifically enough benefits justify to the cost of the BCAA. Research and anecdotal findings would definitely suggest yes.

I feel that the benefits of free-form BCAA lie in their ability to quickly flood the blood stream and amino acid pools with high amounts of BCAA, specifically leucine. While whey protein is absorbed quickly, ingestion of 10 grams of BCAA from whey does not create the same metabolic response as the ingestion of 10 grams of free-form BCAA.

Once whey protein reaches the gut, it takes about 45 minutes before the amino acids start to be extracted and are absorbed and can be used. This lower absorption means the amino acid pools are not "flooded" with large amounts of BCAA.

Remember, the BCAA ability to be utilized in various pathways is governed by their availability. It is my belief that delivering large amounts of BCAA to muscle and keeping BCAA levels elevated will cause a strong and sustained activation of mTOR, leading to skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

The current research available clearly displays that the BCAA (specifically leucine) are very potent stimulators of protein synthesis and have many other beneficial effects to athletes.

In Summary, The Metabolic Roles Of The BCAA Include:

Substrate for energy production
Substrate for protein synthesis
Precursor for the formation of other amino acids
Primarily Alanine and Glutamine
Metabolic signals (Primarily Leucine)
Stimulates protein synthesis through insulin secretion/activation of the PI3K pathway
Stimulates protein synthesis through activation of mTOR
Stimulates leptin expression in adipocytes through activation of mTOR
What all this means is ingesting BCAA primes your body for growth (protein synthesis). All of these actions are beneficial to an athlete and should not be overlooked. There is endless research backing BCAA supplementation. I feel it would be much more beneficial, both performance/results wise and money wise, to go "old school" and supplement with BCAA than to buy into all the current hype supplements on the market today.

[T.O]

Originally Posted by PRO41

Here's an excerpt from a Derek Charlebois article explaining why bcaa's on there own, are far more advantageous than what you find in whole foods and shakes:


By: Derek Beast Charlebois

Supplementing With BCAA


What is interesting about the BCAA is their ability to participate in the above metabolic processes, energy substrates, substrates for protein synthesis, precursors for alanine and glutamine, and modulators of protein synthesis, is governed by their availability. Research suggests that first and foremost the BCAA are used for the synthesis of protein structures (Layman, 2003).

Research on leucine shows that once the minimum requirement of leucine for protein synthesis is met leucine can then be used as a precursor for alanine and glutamine or to activate various signaling pathways (Layman, 2003), such as the mTOR pathway. It may sound like leucine is free to exert its powerful effect of mTOR activation, but one must remember that protein breakdown and synthesis is occurring throughout the entire body; the body's protein stores are in a constant state of flux.

The constant body protein flux plus the increased leucine oxidation caused by exercise means that leucine is in high demand and therefore may not be able to participate in muscle growth at its full potential. This is where supplementing with additional BCAA comes into play and importance.

Due to leucine's metabolic properties, many people focus solely on leucine and not the other two BCAAs valine and isoleucine.

Research has shown that leucine-rich diets or administration of leucine alone lead to decreases in valine and isoleucine plasma concentrations and a BCAA imbalance (Shirmomura et al., 2004). While it may be cheaper to supplement with leucine alone instead of all three BCAA, one should supplement with all three BCAA so not to create a BCAA imbalance.

The main question or argument with BCAA supplementation people have is whether additional BCAA supplementation on top of an already high protein intake will produce any benefits, specifically enough benefits justify to the cost of the BCAA. Research and anecdotal findings would definitely suggest yes.

I feel that the benefits of free-form BCAA lie in their ability to quickly flood the blood stream and amino acid pools with high amounts of BCAA, specifically leucine. While whey protein is absorbed quickly, ingestion of 10 grams of BCAA from whey does not create the same metabolic response as the ingestion of 10 grams of free-form BCAA.

Once whey protein reaches the gut, it takes about 45 minutes before the amino acids start to be extracted and are absorbed and can be used. This lower absorption means the amino acid pools are not "flooded" with large amounts of BCAA.

Remember, the BCAA ability to be utilized in various pathways is governed by their availability. It is my belief that delivering large amounts of BCAA to muscle and keeping BCAA levels elevated will cause a strong and sustained activation of mTOR, leading to skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

The current research available clearly displays that the BCAA (specifically leucine) are very potent stimulators of protein synthesis and have many other beneficial effects to athletes.

In Summary, The Metabolic Roles Of The BCAA Include:

Substrate for energy production
Substrate for protein synthesis
Precursor for the formation of other amino acids
Primarily Alanine and Glutamine
Metabolic signals (Primarily Leucine)
Stimulates protein synthesis through insulin secretion/activation of the PI3K pathway
Stimulates protein synthesis through activation of mTOR
Stimulates leptin expression in adipocytes through activation of mTOR
What all this means is ingesting BCAA primes your body for growth (protein synthesis). All of these actions are beneficial to an athlete and should not be overlooked. There is endless research backing BCAA supplementation. I feel it would be much more beneficial, both performance/results wise and money wise, to go "old school" and supplement with BCAA than to buy into all the current hype supplements on the market today.

Ok wow. I could have got that off of bodybuilding.com. Now let me see a published researh that states 15-20 g of BCAAs in one serving is superior to 3-5 g per serving? Find that for me and Ill shut up.

I never argued that BCAA was better consumed directly rather than in the form of your average whey protein. I already know that. My argument was that combined with free form and you protein shakes through out the day, its more than enough.

As for me researching BCAAs. Lets just say I consider myself to know enough about the supplement. Get that research for me buddy.

[T.O]

Think about it. Your telling me that you take up to 45g of BCAAs a day. Your a beast bro not too mention rich.

[PRO41]

Originally Posted by Teamorbit

Think about it. Your telling me that you take up to 45g of BCAAs a day. Your a beast bro not too mention rich.

Nope, I don't take that much. I might come close when in prep for a show, but it's negligable. Additionally, bcaa's are cheap. You can purchase a pound of bulk powder (454gr) for around $20. Do the math, and you can plainly see why buying pills are NOT the way to go.

There is a famous Italian study from years back regarding bcaa use. I'll try and dig it up if I can. In the mean time you can get all the latest research and data, studies, etc. from PubMed.com

Here are some of the opinions of how bcaa's should be used by some of the better known strength and bodybuilding coaches. As with anything related to exercise, nutrition, and supplementation, nothing is scripted in stone. You can discern the wide range of opinion......Charles Poliquin recommends at least 40gr centered around the workout. Poliquin's recommendations stem from the Italian study:
(Please dis-regard the Bio-Test plugging)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BCAA Dosage Recommendations for Some popular Strength Coaches

" Christian Thibaudeau's BCAA Protocols

Christian Thibaudeau is on the high end of the scale, but the results speak for themselves:

"Over the past year, I've had several clients gain up to 8 pounds of lean mass in 2 weeks using my protocol. While most of my clients don't gain 8 pounds in two weeks, most will gain an average of 1-2 pounds per week over the first 8 weeks of use."

Here's what Christian recommends:

5 servings of 5-10 grams per day (i.e. about 4 to 8 Biotest BCAA tablets):

1. Upon waking up (especially if you engage in pre-breakfast cardio).

2. Between breakfast and lunch.

3. Between lunch and supper.

4. Mid-evening.

5. Before going to bed.

"Each serving would ideally be 10 grams; that will give you the best gains by far. The results are very close to being drug-like, and I'm not one to say this lightly. I put my reputation on the line."


Chad Waterbury's BCAA Protocols

Chad Waterbury has devised several BCAA protocols for his clients, some as high as 20 grams per serving and some as low as 3 grams per serving.

One of his favorites, though, is his "Mid-Sleep BCAA Protocol for Cutting or Bulking."

"I've long stressed the importance of night-time feedings for growth and recovery. Problem is, most people don't want to get up in the middle of the night and have a protein shake. But with a good BCAA supplement, all they need to do is have the pills sitting next to their alarm clock with a glass of water. They wake up briefly, take the pills, and they're back asleep."

Chad's nighttime protocol calls for 1.5 grams of BCAA per 25 pounds of lean body mass. In other words, a 200-pound man would take roughly 8 Biotest BCAA tablets upon awakening.

Chad is also big on using BCAA for cutting, for which he prescribes 0.75 grams of BCAA per 25 pounds of LBM four times a day, between meals. (That equals about 4 Biotest BCAA tablets 4 times a day, for the prototypical 200-pound man.)


John Berardi's BCAA Protocols

While Christian and Chad probably represent two ends of the BCAA dose spectrum, nutritionist John Berardi's preferences lie somewhere in the middle.

For muscle gain or athletic performance, John recommends:

Non-Training Days: 4 Biotest BCAA tablets (roughly 5 grams), 2 or 3 times a day, split evenly throughout the day.

Training days: 4 Biotest BCAA tablets upon waking, 4 tablets during training, and 4 tablets after training, the two latter doses being in addition to a serving of Biotest's Surge.

However, John also has a pretty interesting protocol that he uses on himself every couple of years to get super ripped. Get this, John Berardi, Mr. "Massive Eating" himself, will occasionally go on a stint where he eats 3 meals a day, totaling about 2,000 calories, interspersed with three 10-gram "feedings" of BCAA.

The large amounts of BCAA offset any potential muscle loss from the fairly severe bout of calorie restriction.

As you can see, the recommended dosages vary. However, I think it's absolutely clear that BCAA are a valuable and indispensable tool for building muscle, improving athletic performance, or maintaining muscle while losing body fat. "

and Charles Poliquin has recommended 40 grams per workout

" Mega-Dose BCAAs

Now, during workout the most important thing is Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs). People who claim they don't get results from them simply don't take enough. A 200 pound man should take 40 grams of BCAAs during a workout. I also add 9 grams of Carnosine.

I make my own amino acid blend capsules and find that you can train much harder with them and not get sore. In between sets you take four or five capsules. My athletes might go through 40 or 50 capsules per workout. We just dump about fifty capsules in a bottle and make sure they're all gone by the end of the workout. I find that to be very anabolic. Most people who try that protocol break their plateaus right away.

BCAAs have a host of research-supported benefits including preventing catabolism, stimulating anabolism, lowering DOMS, and providing endurance, energy, and an increased rate of recovery. Military personnel in many countries now receive BCAA solutions to prevent mental fatigue during maneuvers."

[T.O]

Do what you do bro. If it works for you than cant argue with that. But I will be waiting for the study. FYI I am involved with the manufacturing of BCAAs and other supplements so I have done my research.

What gets me is that Im around bodybuilder all the time some proffesional and 3-5 g a day 3 times a day seems to be sufficent enough for them. So your arguing with opinion and what more your arguing with preference in which a consumer would like better powder vs pill.

If you can show me the scientific research. Thanks

But on another note. welcome to the Dungeon and Happy Holidays to everyone.

[T.O]

Originally Posted by PRO41

Time released capsule? Abusing bcaa's? LOL.
3-4 gr wouldn't be much even for the sedentary individual.

If you are training with any kind of intensity or purpose, 20-25gr of exogenous bcaa's centered around the workout parameter is close to being effective.

Do some perusing and reading on protein sub-fractions and learn what bcaa's are and how they benefit the bodybuilder and competitive athlete.

Or you can probably drop Layne a PM and ask for his opinion on what you stated up top. His answer might surprise you.

Hey bro Im just curious where you got the idea that 15-20 g as you stated is ideal perserving for an active person or athlete who trains hard.

Now did you mean 15-20 g a day????? Because that sounds more realistic and I know 1 serving of powder is 4-5 g. Because I am taking it as youi saying 15g per serving.

Now a simple google search would not support your theory. But it would mine all over the internet. Studys show no increased signifigance in athletes who take 10 -20 g per day vs 3-6 g per day.

So do you think these guys should still throw there BCAAs away because there taking 3-5 g per serving???????


"One controlled study gave triathletes 6 grams per day of BCAA for one month before a competition, then 3 grams per day from the day of competition until a week following. Compared with a placebo, BCAAs restored depleted glutamine stores and immune factors that occur in elite athletes, and led to a reported one-third fewer symptoms of infection during the period of supplementation.10 Studies by one group of researchers suggest that BCAA supplementation may also improve exercise-induced declines in some aspects of mental functioning"

[mm1snapper]

Not going to get in a pointless argument here but i also take ON BCAA 1000 And am thinking about adding this new bcaa called xtend during my work out! Supposed to have great flavor and mix really well.

[CrusaderMuscle]

Originally Posted by mm1snapper

Not going to get in a pointless argument here but i also take ON BCAA 1000 And am thinking about adding this new bcaa called xtend during my work out! Supposed to have great flavor and mix really well.

I've heard great things about Xtend. I'm thinking about using it myself. Post a review.

[PRO41]

Originally Posted by Teamorbit

Hey bro Im just curious where you got the idea that 15-20 g as you stated is ideal perserving for an active person or athlete who trains hard.

Now did you mean 15-20 g a day????? Because that sounds more realistic and I know 1 serving of powder is 4-5 g. Because I am taking it as youi saying 15g per serving.

Now a simple google search would not support your theory. But it would mine all over the internet. Studys show no increased signifigance in athletes who take 10 -20 g per day vs 3-6 g per day.

So do you think these guys should still throw there BCAAs away because there taking 3-5 g per serving???????


"One controlled study gave triathletes 6 grams per day of BCAA for one month before a competition, then 3 grams per day from the day of competition until a week following. Compared with a placebo, BCAAs restored depleted glutamine stores and immune factors that occur in elite athletes, and led to a reported one-third fewer symptoms of infection during the period of supplementation.10 Studies by one group of researchers suggest that BCAA supplementation may also improve exercise-induced declines in some aspects of mental functioning"

Im not a "studies" oriented bodybuilder when it comes to anything fitness related. They are constantly contradicting each other. Just when you are sure about the veracity with one, another comes along disputing it. What is layed out on paper doesn't usually pan out in the real world. There are thousands of studies available with bcaa's, usually tested in different circumstances, populations, age groups, type of athlete and athletic event, hypo-caloric or surplus parameters, the list goes on.

As you can see from the above post where some strength training experts differ with their bcaa protocol, there is more than one way to skin the cat. Now, if you take the Xtend product that's been brought up in the past two posts, the directions indicate for a 180 lb. bodybuilder to take 6 scoops of the product during his training. This equates to 21 gr of bcaa's. When using Xtend, on a caloric deficit leading into a show, I've regularly used 10 scoops intra workout. For muscle preservation and dropping bodyfat, this method has worked best for me. In the offseason, I don't use as much bcaa's since my calories are higher and retention of lean mass is not so much an issue. However, I know of many natural Pro bodybuilders (and competitive powerlifters) who regularly espouse dosing more in line of what C.Poliquin advises - 35-45gr pre,during, and post workout.

If you ever have aspirations of training for bodybuilding shows, I invite you to mega-dose on bcaa's for one of them, and then for your next show use the miniscule amount you cited in your study. This would be a"real world" application.

Now, if you want to google up more studies, here are some which may interest you. I find them much too confusing. BTW, thanks for the welcome and Merry Christmas to all!

References

1. Boirie Y, Dangin M, Gachon P, Vasson MP, Maubois JL, and Beaufrere B. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 94: 14930-14935, 1997.

2. Flakoll PJ, VandeHaar MJ, Kuhlman G, and Nissen S. Influence of alpha-ketoisocaproate on lamb growth, feed conversion, and carcass composition. J Anim Sci 69: 1461-1467, 1991.

3. Fujita S and Volpi E. Amino acids and muscle loss with aging. J Nutr 136: 277S-280S, 2006.

4. Gibala MJ. Regulation of skeletal muscle amino acid metabolism during exercise. Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab 11: 87-108, 2001.

5. Goldberg AL. Protein synthesis during work-induced growth of skeletal muscle. J Cell Biol 36: 653-658, 1968.

6. Goldberg AL, Etlinger JD, Goldspink DF, and Jablecki C. Mechanism of work-induced hypertrophy of skeletal muscle. Med SciSports 7: 185-198, 1975

7. Goldberg AL and Goodman HM. Amino acid transport during work-induced growth of skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol 216: 1111-1115, 1969.

8. Harper AE, Miller RH, and Block KP. Branched-chain amino acid metabolism. Annu Rev Nutr 4: 409-454, 1984.

9. Kimball SR and Jefferson LS. Signaling pathways and molecular mechanisms through which branched-chain amino acids mediate translational control of protein synthesis. J Nutr 136: 227S-231S, 2006.

10. Nair KS, Halliday D, and Griggs RC. Leucine incorporation into mixed skeletal muscle protein in humans. Am J Physiol 254: E208-213, 1988.

11. Nissen S, Sharp R, Ray M, Rathmacher JA, Rice D, Fuller JC, Jr., Connelly AS, and Abumrad N. Effect of leucine metabolite beta-hydroxy-beta-methylbutyrate on muscle metabolism during resistance-exercise training. J Appl Physiol 81: 2095-2104, 1996.

12. Ohtani M, Sugita M, and Maruyama K. Amino acid mixture improves training efficiency in athletes. J Nutr 136: 538S-543S, 2006.

13. Shimomura Y, Murakami T, Nakai N, Nagasaki M, and Harris RA. Exercise promotes BCAA catabolism: effects of BCAA supplementation on skeletal muscle during exercise. J Nutr 134: 1583S-1587S, 2004.

14. Tang FC. Influence of branched-chain amino acid supplementation on urinary protein metabolite concentrations after swimming. J Am Coll Nutr 25: 188-194, 2006.

[T.O]

^^^ Not a problem brotha, and I just might try mega dosing BCAA to see if there is a difference. Thanks for keeping me challenged. I enjoy a good debate. :)

[mm1snapper]

Originally Posted by Teamorbit

^^^ Not a problem brotha, and I just might try mega dosing BCAA to see if there is a difference. Thanks for keeping me challenged. I enjoy a good debate. :)

Im going to give this a try also man i was thinking around 30-40g a day. Let us now how it works.