[LIFTBIG18]

just trying to throw a little something together for people confused about proper PCT

PCT
Clomid:50/50/50/50/25/25
Nolvadex:40/40/20/20/10/10

Optional For PCT
Aromasin 5mgs ed for 2 weeks
*arimidex can be used, but aromasin has been shown to be safer on lipid profiles
*The reason we will use this at the end of the cycle is because, using it at the beginning is pointless because there is not enough testosterone to fight the conversion, also the reason we did not use this between weeks 10-12 like I have seen some people do is because this could keep your testosterone levels higher than normal and thus your body will not sense the fact that it needs to produce more as well as it should even with the stimulation of the LH mechanism.



To make recovery easier
HCG
2 different ways to use this

1. from week 3-right before PCT...250iu 2x ew
2. from end of cycle(if using long esters) to PCT....500iu every third day

HCG SHOULD NOT BE USED IN PCT, IT IS A SNYTHETIC VERSION OF LH, YOUR BODY WILL NOT BE ABLE TO PRODUCE ITS OWN LH IF THERE IS A SYNTHETIC VERSION PRESENT

[LIFTBIG18]

1: J Sex Med. 2005 Sep;2(5):716-21. Links
Clomiphene citrate effects on testosterone/estrogen ratio in male hypogonadism.Shabsigh A, Kang Y, Shabsign R, Gonzalez M, Liberson G, Fisch H, Goluboff E.
Department of Urology, NY Presbyterian Medical Center, New York, NY, USA.

AIM: Symptomatic late-onset hypogonadism is associated not only with a decline in serum testosterone, but also with a rise in serum estradiol. These endocrine changes negatively affect libido, sexual function, mood, behavior, lean body mass, and bone density. Currently, the most common treatment is exogenous testosterone therapy. This treatment can be associated with skin irritation, gynecomastia, nipple tenderness, testicular atrophy, and decline in sperm counts. In this study we investigated the efficacy of clomiphene citrate in the treatment of hypogonadism with the objectives of raising endogenous serum testosterone (T) and improving the testosterone/estrogen (T/E) ratio. METHODS: Our cohort consisted of 36 Caucasian men with hypogonadism defined as serum testosterone level less than 300 ng/dL. Each patient was treated with a daily dose of 25 mg clomiphene citrate and followed prospectively. Analysis of baseline and follow-up serum levels of testosterone and estradiol levels were performed. RESULTS: The mean age was 39 years, and the mean pretreatment testosterone and estrogen levels were 247.6 +/- 39.8 ng/dL and 32.3 +/- 10.9, respectively. By the first follow-up visit (4-6 weeks), the mean testosterone level rose to 610.0 +/- 178.6 ng/dL (P < 0.00001). Moreover, the T/E ratio improved from 8.7 to 14.2 (P < 0.001). There were no side effects reported by the patients. CONCLUSIONS: Low dose clomiphene citrate is effective in elevating serum testosterone levels and improving the testosterone/estradiol ratio in men with hypogonadism. This therapy represents an alternative to testosterone therapy by stimulating the endogenous androgen production pathway.

PMID: 16422830 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.Tan RS, Vasudevan D.
Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. robert.s.tan@uth.tmc.edu

OBJECTIVE: To report a case of symptomatic hypogonadism induced by the abuse of multiple steroid preparations that was subsequently reversed by clomiphene. DESIGN: Case report. SETTING: University-affiliated andrology practice within family practice clinic. PATIENT(S): A 30-year-old male. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate, 100-mg challenge for 5 days, followed by treatment at same dose for 2 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Clinical symptoms, androgen decline in aging male questionnaire, total T, FSH, LH. RESULT(S): Reversal of symptoms, normalization of T levels with LH surge, restoration of pituitary-gonadal axis. CONCLUSION(S): Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.

PMID: 12524089 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Fertil Steril. 2006 Nov;86(5):1513.e5-9. Links
Complete reversal of adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism with clomiphene citrate.Ioannidou-Kadis S, Wright PJ, Neely RD, Quinton R.
Department of Endocrinology, Royal Victoria Infirmary and University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, United Kingdom.

OBJECTIVE: Inhibition of pituitary gonadotropin secretion in men by T is principally mediated by aromatization to estrogen (E), which inhibits hypothalamic secretion of GnRH. We hypothesized that adult-onset isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (IHH) might result from an altered central set-point for E-mediated negative feedback. DESIGN AND SETTING: Longitudinal clinical investigation unit-based evaluation of the clinical and biochemical response to E-receptor blockade. PATIENT(S): A 31-year-old man presenting with an 18-month history of sexual dysfunction resulting from severe adult-onset IHH (LH 1.7 U/L, FSH 2.0 U/L, T 3.5 nmol/L). INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 50 mg of clomiphene citrate (CC) three times a day for 7 days, with overnight LH pulse profiling and 9 am T levels evaluated at baseline and on completion. A 2-month washout period, followed by low-dose maintenance therapy (25-50 mg/d) for 4 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Baseline and stimulated T levels and LH pulsatility; effect on sexual function. RESULT(S): Clomiphene therapy resulted in complete normalization of pulsatile gonadotropin secretion, serum T level, and sexual function. CONCLUSION(S): Isolated hypogonadotropic hypogonadism may result from an acquired defect of enhanced hypothalamic sensitivity to E-mediated negative feedback. Whereas direct T replacement therapy can further suppress endogenous gonadotropin secretion, treating IHH men with gonadotropins can stimulate endogenous T secretion and enhance fertility potential. On theoretical grounds, reversal of gonadotropin deficiency with CC might be expected to have a similar biological effect.

PMID: 17070201 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Fertil Steril. 1997 Apr;67(4):783-5. Links

Comment in:
Fertil Steril. 1997 Oct;68(4):745.
Idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in a male runner is reversed by clomiphene citrate.Burge MR, Lanzi RA, Skarda ST, Eaton RP.
University of New Mexico School of Medicine, Department of Medicine/Endocrinology-5ACC, Albuquerque 87131, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To assess the efficacy of estrogen antagonist therapy on the function of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis in a young male runner with significant morbidity attributable to idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. DESIGN: An uncontrolled case study. SETTING: The outpatient endocrinology clinic of a university tertiary referral center. PATIENT(S): A 29-year-old male who has run 50 to 90 miles per week since 15 years of age and who presented with a pelvic stress fracture, markedly decreased bone mineral density, and symptomatic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. INTERVENTION(S): Clomiphene citrate (CC) at doses up to 50 mg two times per day over a 5-month period. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Serum concentrations of LH, FSH, and T before and after CC therapy, as well as clinical indicators of gonadal function. RESULT(S): Barely detectable levels of LH and FSH associated with hypogonadal levels of T were restored to the normal range with CC therapy. The patient experienced improved erectile function, increased testicular size and sexual hair growth, and an improved sense of well being. CONCLUSION(S): Exercise-induced hypogonadotropic hypogonadism exists as a clinical entity among male endurance athletes, and CC may provide a safe and effective treatment option for males with debilitating hypogonadism related to endurance exercise.

PMID: 9093212 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[LIFTBIG18]

Gerstein HC, Capes SE, Iacobellis
Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, McMaster University, McMaster Hospital, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

OBJECTIVE: In this study we investigate the use of tamoxifen citrate in the reversal of lowered total testosterone and luteinizing hormone by the abuse of several anabolic steroids. DESIGN: Case Study. PATIENT(S): A 35 year old man, who has admitted to using several steroids including; testosterone, nandrolone, methandrostenolone, stanozolol, oxymetholone, and norethandrolone for several years. The patients testosterone levels were severely lower than average measuring at 156ng/dl, and luteinizing hormone measuring at only 0.93IU/L. INTERVENTION(S): Initial therapy with 40mg of tamoxifen citrate everyday for 21 days, followed by a maintenance dose of 10mg everyday for 49 days. MEASURES: Total testosterone and luteinizing hormone increase. RESULT(S): Reversal of negative feedback on testosterone and LH levels from steroid abuse, Total Testosterone levels reached 522ng/dl, and LH levels increase above average to 8.2IU/L. CONCLUSION(S): Tamoxifen citrate can successfully be used to restore Testosterone and Luteinizing Hormone levels after steroid abuse in a male patient.

OBJECTIVES/METHODS: To review the incidence of male infertility secondary to intake of anabolic products and our experience and outcomes with treatment. There is a variety of such substances (testosterone, nandrolone, stanozolol, etc.) in their intake may be unique or combinations, both orally or parenterally. Comparisons between patients and case series are difficult because of the hiding of this practice and various consumption practices and doses employed. RESULTS/CONCLUSIONS: Most of the patients recover normal spermatogenesis does by stopping intake of anabolic substances. The period of time until recovery is 6.35 months. Patients not recovering after six months were given tamoxifen 20 mg/24-hour, if having a normal or inhibited hypothalamus-hypophysis axis. Duration of abuse, doses, and anarchical consumption maderesponse to treatment with antiestrogen drugs or gonadotropins unpredictable in patients not responding to conservative treatment.

[anthk]

use any ai at the start of PCT, you want your levels back as soon as possible.
first 10 days it best.
really PCT doesn't need to go for so long either. your cycle posted is good for someone who doesnt really know anything and then can adjust it for themselves.
nolvadex only is effective as well. really depends on the person.

[LIFTBIG18]

Originally Posted by anthk

use any ai at the start of PCT, you want your levels back as soon as possible.
first 10 days it best.
really PCT doesn't need to go for so long either. your cycle posted is good for someone who doesnt really know anything and then can adjust it for themselves.
nolvadex only is effective as well. really depends on the person.

yea i just threw this up b.c ive gotten a few PMs about cycles and PCT the last few weeks so im just tryin to make it easier, i think using an AI in pct is for ppl who have done a few cycles and know what theyre doing, i know for some people nolvadex does work, thats why i posted those studies as well, length of PCT from what i have been reading should actually be a minimum of 6 weeks, it takes the body anywhere from 3-6 months to recover from a simple test cycle, so from what ive read and what im starting to understand is that the longer the PCT the better

[anthk]

correct but the longer you put something and the more of something doesnt necessarily mean better results. introducing a huge amount of something over excess periods can induce more serious side effects, like in medicine leaflets i'f missed a dose do not double dose meaning it you might experience more serious side effects. im not disagreeing with you i do agree with you but the more i see these PCT regimes the more it makes me think and experiment on myself to get better results. this is the ****ed up part, im going to say what i think works best but i know someone who takes a 2 packs of nolvadex no worries.
i say to use an AI too but it's so much drugs slamming into your body but i tryed it on myslef and after 15 days i was dribbling cum my balls came back so full.
so far for myself i found that using orals or short esters to shorten the PCT lag, the first 2 weeks of PCT is important and dosage timing. i think maybe clomid (day) 100 100 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50; nolvadex (day) 60 60 40 40 40 40 40 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20; AI-arimidex (day) .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg (optional-if you have trouble raising natural levels quicker)

again someone might need to take the clomid longer but i believe that using it for 12 days is enough and then using one substance at a lower dose over the extra weeks will help them.
so much confusion, you need your research to be top notch and your head screwed on for this to be done properly.
your post though was a good one.

[ibanezman88]

yeah i heard there' no point in tapering clomid down.

[LIFTBIG18]

Originally Posted by anthk

correct but the longer you put something and the more of something doesnt necessarily mean better results. introducing a huge amount of something over excess periods can induce more serious side effects, like in medicine leaflets i'f missed a dose do not double dose meaning it you might experience more serious side effects. im not disagreeing with you i do agree with you but the more i see these PCT regimes the more it makes me think and experiment on myself to get better results. this is the ****ed up part, im going to say what i think works best but i know someone who takes a 2 packs of nolvadex no worries.
i say to use an AI too but it's so much drugs slamming into your body but i tryed it on myslef and after 15 days i was dribbling cum my balls came back so full.
so far for myself i found that using orals or short esters to shorten the PCT lag, the first 2 weeks of PCT is important and dosage timing. i think maybe clomid (day) 100 100 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50 50; nolvadex (day) 60 60 40 40 40 40 40 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20; AI-arimidex (day) .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg .5mg (optional-if you have trouble raising natural levels quicker)

again someone might need to take the clomid longer but i believe that using it for 12 days is enough and then using one substance at a lower dose over the extra weeks will help them.
so much confusion, you need your research to be top notch and your head screwed on for this to be done properly.
your post though was a good one.

ive actually read a few studies where low dose clomid (25mgs ed) for 6-8 weeks actually helped reverse secondary hypogonadism, its all pretty interesting, im also looking into torem right now but there are only a few studies done on it so far

[prime52]

pct lined up for upcoming
1-2week .5 adex
1-5week 50mg clomid
3-5week 40mg nov

[gringo220]

Originally Posted by LIFTBIG18

ive actually read a few studies where low dose clomid (25mgs ed) for 6-8 weeks actually helped reverse secondary hypogonadism, its all pretty interesting, im also looking into torem right now but there are only a few studies done on it so far

Heard the same thing about the clomid.