[Jarman]

Hi everyone,

I am a 5'8" male, 23 years old. I am in the process of planning out my second cycle. My first cycle consisted of 200mg deca/week and 300mg test enanthate/week. I went from 172lbs. - 202 lbs. I used nolva and clomid for PCT. After the completion of my cycle I lost 9 lbs. I now weigh in at 193lbs. For this second cycle I plan to gain another 25 lbs. However, I do not want to gain the same type of weight I gained of my first cycle (bloated muscle from water retention). Can anyone suggest a potential cycle that would promote noticible size/strength gains, as well as very little water retention and bloat?

I have received a few suggestions from another board member. I value his opinion greatly, and I ended up following his advice soley throughout my first cycle. His suggestions are usually spot on but I would like to meet other people who know the drugs as well as he does. Here is what he recommended:



Suggestion 1.)

This is a 12 weeker bro aimed primarily for throwing on lotts of mass, you could always add HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin) every 3rd-4th day from week 2, this will stop your testicles from shrinking so when PCT starts they will be at the optimum size for producing the optimum amount of testosterone and helping you keep the most amount of size.

Also i have suggested test prop in the last 2 weeks of the cycle, because if you just had test e you would have to wait 2 weeks from your last shot before you could start pct, and its not very nice to have dwindling test levels and missing vital growth, so by using test prop after your test e for those last 2 weeks allows you to keep your test levels high right up to 3 days before the start of pct.

you could also take .5mg of adex (every day) or (every other day), its up to you, this should keep lotts of water off you from the test, im not sure it applies with the deca or eq.

id just stick to whacking on lotts of mass then see how i am after the cycle, and if im happy maybe do a cutter after this.

i have other options but what do you think.

your diet is the key to wether they are lean gains or heavy gains, so keep your diet clean and your gains will be lean after all the water has gone.


Compounds used over the time periods shown below.

w/ks 1-4 Dbol 30mg per day
w/ks 1-10 Test Enanthate 500mg (250mg mon & thurs)
w/ks 1-9 EQ or Deca 400mg (200mg mon & thurs)
w/ks 10-12 Test Prop 100mg every other day!
.5mg adex every day


Suggestion 2.)

If you want you could use dbol for 2-3 weeks at the start of the cycle and finnish the last 2 weeks of the cycle with dbol instead of test prop.


What are your views on these...?

[IronMan23]

I would run that test for 12 weeks. And Eq is worthless taken less that 16 weeks since it is such a slow acting drug, also Eq is best when taken at 600mg's per week, under that you won't really notice much at all, at any weight or experience.

Try this,

Test Enth 600mg's per week for 12
Fast acting Eq " Boldenone Cypionate" 600mg's per week for 12 weeks.

Keep you dbol the same dosage and duration.

[IronMan23]

Oh yes also don't just use adex for your PCT, also use tribulus at 3g's per day for 6 weeks and past till your next cycle, and use Nolvadex at 40mg's per day for 4 weeks and at 20mg's for another 3 weeks. Using Nolva like this prevents estrogen rebound, raises you LH hormone to regain proper natural test production and helps maintain your gains much longer after your cycle.

[odell]

good advice

[roccodart440]

Originally Posted by odell

good advice

REally? Interesting old wise one. Especially you agreeing with nolvadex preventing estrogen rebound. LOL. That's a good one. Another funny one is "fast acting EQ" refereed to as EQ cypionate? LOL it bolnelone acetate and it is miserable to use.


THis guy said he wants less bloat this cycle and he is talking about suggestions that consist of all aromatizable or water retaining drugs. WTF? Why has no one told him about this, why are there no suggestions related to his goals?

TEst needs to be in there. Bloat from test can be controlled to a degree. Aromasin should alsways be chosen over arimidex for a variety of resons. If any one needs to have those spelled out for them start a new thread or do some research. Better yet try it yourself for a comparasin.

Now, one issue. 25 pounds is alot to put on using non aromatisable drugs. That is somewhat of the type of weight a bulker would put on you. HEre is my suggestion.

1-12 test 500mg-750mg EW
1-4 & 9-12 Anavar 60mg ED or Tbol 60mg ED
13-14 Test prop 150mg EOD
15 and beyond PCT clomid/nolvadex
1-15 hcg 250iu 2x per week. Increase frequency if needed.
Aromasin for water retention

Aromasin is a suicidal linhibitor of estrogen. Arimidex is not. Nolva is an agonist in some tissues and an antagonist in others. It protects you from gyno but not by controlling your estro levels. Do not use an AI in your PCT and if you use aromasin during your cycle there would be no need to.

[slider88]

is it ok to take d-bol for the 2 weeks in between the end of ur cycle and ur pct

[roccodart440]

Originally Posted by slider88

is it ok to take d-bol for the 2 weeks in between the end of ur cycle and ur pct

Absolutly ok, many do. But you may experience libido issues in the 2nd week as your test levels drop to zero and your are taking another supressive compound. YOur best bet wouldbe to use prop EOD + the dbol. That is sure to give you max gains and no probs with your dick.

[Jarman]

Rocco,

When you say to use test weeks 1-12, which ester are you referring to ....enanthate..?

[IronMan23]

REally? Interesting old wise one. Especially you agreeing with nolvadex preventing estrogen rebound. LOL. That's a good one. Another funny one is "fast acting EQ" refereed to as EQ cypionate? LOL it bolnelone acetate and it is miserable to use.



Yes as I stated tapering off Nolvadex prevents estrogen rebound compared to going right off it at 40mg's per day which does happen. And Bold Cyp is also called fast acting Eq and obviously Bold Ace is the shortest ester, Bold Cyp is faster acting than its original longer acting ester thats why its referred to as fast acting Eq by many.

[roccodart440]

Originally Posted by Jarman

Rocco,

When you say to use test weeks 1-12, which ester are you referring to ....enanthate..?

Enanthate or cypionate.

Originally Posted by IronMan23

Yes as I stated tapering off Nolvadex prevents estrogen rebound compared to going right off it at 40mg's per day which does happen. And Bold Cyp is also called fast acting Eq and obviously Bold Ace is the shortest ester, Bold Cyp is faster acting than its original longer acting ester thats why its referred to as fast acting Eq by many.

Where to start? 1st nolva will not prevent estrogen rebound. It will prevent gyno if you still have a major estrogen problem. I agree to taper serms but your resoning is incorrect. Again nolvadex for the record does nothing to control estrogen levels. It merely controls one of the side effects. MAny powerlifters will run novladex to avoid gyno but still allow aromatization to take place and give them lots of bloat. They want the bloat for strength and protection from injury. No one wants gyno.

EQ comes in two esters.acetate which is the fast acting one. Again it is misterable to use or undeconate which has an active life of 14-16 days. Almost identical to a cypionate ester. THe reson people say it takes so long has nothing to do with the ester it has to do with the compound itself. Most people they don't run enough EQ to really feel it.

[IronMan23]

I know it prevents and treats gyno, and that its main purpose is for areas like breast, bone, and liver. It also helps with other estrogen realated side effects. Nolvadex is a selective ANTIESTROGEN. I did not say taking Nolva will prevent estrogen rebound, I said that tapering off it prevents estrogen rebound because it is itself a week estrogen that competes with your bodys own estrogen production. Nolva is a selective estrogen receptor modulator. Selective estrogen receptor modulators can act as estrogen receptor agonists or antagonists. When the tamoxifen molecule binds to this receptor, the estrogen is blocked and can not have any influence, and by doing so, an "anti-estrogenic" effect is achieved. Nolvadex does this by blocking the negative feedback inhibition caused by estrogen at the hypothalamus and pituitary. Another aspect of Nolvadex for is its ability to increase the production of luteinizing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone, and therefore increasing testosterone. So if you taper off it like some guys taper off testosterone it will help prevent the shock effect that some guys get from going straight off any drug. It works for me when I do it. I went off nolva at 40mg's per day and tried tapering off it the next time and it seemed to work much better. Just my 2 cents. But not everybody will agree with it as you have already stated. To each there own.

[roccodart440]

[quote=IronMan23]It does prevent and treat gyno but realize it's action in bone, liver and breat tissue are very different. ALso it's effects on bone sensity and mineral absorbtion are only TMK been studied and provven in women. NOt saying it doesn't have these effects but I have never seen proof.

YOu said it helps with other estrogen related side effects. OK, Like what? Nolvadex is not a selective antiestrogen. It does not stop aromatization which is the key to where estrogen comes from in males. An anti-estrogen does this. Tapering off nolvadex does not prevent estrogen rebound because it has such a small impact on serum estrogen levels. It does not compete for your bodys own estrogen production it competes for the receptors. YOur estrogen does not come from your estrogen receptors. Blocking the receptor just prevents your own estrogen from intereacting with it. Your serum estrogen levels in your blood have not changed. Nolvadex ihas an anti estrogenic effect in this way only.

Clomid is far better than nolvadex for restring HPTA function. It has proven itself in this regard. Nolvadex is not used medically to restotre HPTA, improve fertility of men or hypogonadism. CLomid is. I use nolva and clomid combined for PCT but I've done a nolva only PCT, clomid only and both and clomid is the true workhorse. Go figure research and the medical community don't always lie.

There is no doubt that tapering a serm is smart. I agree with you there.