[GENOMYX]

Very good suggestions Jake. I should have done this earlier. Ok this is from Obamas website. I ask that you read these points and play devils advocate. Ask yourself who and how to these proposals. Can these actually be accomplished? What are some of the biggest concerns in countrys that free health care is not working. Organizing for America | BarackObama.com | Tell Congress to Support President Obama's Plan for Health Reform

This link is to the actual bill. US Government Printing Office - FDsys - More Information

[RAGEN2008]

Originally Posted by JakeVendetta

I'm tending to side with Genomyx on this. Although, i'll admit, i can see both sides of the arguement. Healthcare does need drastic change, but can the government affectively do this (in my opinion probably not, i'm young but i've yet to see the government do anything that wasnt driven by self gain). i work in healthcare, i have had to turn down patients because of their insurance or lack there of (not emergancy cases, but outpatient exams). I've also had to give priority to patients just because of the type of provider they have. Doctors will and do take extra steps (even if unneccessary), to give care to patients with good insurance. It is in fact unfair but whats going to stop these doctors from taking advantage of the new free healthcare plan (unneccessary exams/procedures are exactly that, everything has a risk).

Genomyx could you give us a link to the full proposed bill?

Ragen you mention all the numbers for unneccessary deaths, but if you think about it alot of the top causes for death are ones that could be prevented through Americans taking responcibility for themselves. I dont think the government should have to take responcibility for lazy Americans (yes the majority of We Americans are lazy).

Seeing as We the people no longer have control over our government (when was the last time you actually got to vote on an issue, after being presented with all the facts), i think the best thing we can do is stand united and prepare for whatever happens. If we want to save lives then all we can do is encourage our friends and families to take better care of themselves. Most medicines are only covering up symptoms of an underlying cause. I think we would be better off investing money into preventive medicine rather then put 100% of our time and money into the direction healthcare is headed now.

You can not assume people without heath care are too lazy to work to pay for it. Many people with full-time jobs can't afford the added costs of health plans for an entire family. There are a lot of disabled people as well, the young, the old, people who just lost their jobs. When our unemployment rate is over 10% what do you say to the people without jobs? No one cares you lost your job go F- yourself lazy bastard? Get a new job? It's not all that easy to find a job period right now, much less one that will afford you to cover pricey health care.

A lot of people don't buy health care because 200.00 dollars a month is the difference of them paying rent of eating, a lot of people are barely making it and a lot of people are going in debt more each month.

With the economy you will know there are the poor, middle class, upper class and believe it or not, the poor class are not just lazy and do work full-time. Obviously not everyone in America has the luxury to educate themselves and find a job to make over 100k a year.

The people you call lazy that can't afford health care work at subway, walmart, pepboys make ****ty money yet we need people to work those jobs, those jobs do not pay middle class income, yet people like that work full-time, so calling people too lazy to work or too lazy to take care of themselves is a stretch.

How can American's which you view are too lazy to take care of themselves supposed to pay for the doctor visits, without insurance or money be pay for these visits?

Heath care for only those who can afford might sound like a great plan to those who don't want to pick up the extra costs, but for the people whose only option is to get sick and die seems to be a problem for them.

People can debate what it will cost to give all people health care, and money isn't the problem with America, there is enough that can be put into heath care, the problem is a lot of people get rich on people being sick and a lot of people worry more about losing 2 dollars out of their pocket than some person laying on the sidewalk dead.

[RAGEN2008]

Originally Posted by GENOMYX

Very good suggestions Jake. I should have done this earlier. Ok this is from Obamas website. I ask that you read these points and play devils advocate. Ask yourself who and how to these proposals. Can these actually be accomplished? What are some of the biggest concerns in countrys that free health care is not working. Organizing for America | BarackObama.com | Tell Congress to Support President Obama's Plan for Health Reform

This link is to the actual bill. US Government Printing Office - FDsys - More Information

That sounds great but do you want all of your health care needs left up to the government? The same people who set aside money for things like 9-11 recovery and left a bunch of people sick without paying out? This pushes for single leadership over health care which is another monopoly in the making.

Who is going to meet all the needs from the government, more government employees? So we create a bigger government?

Do you believe the government will be more competitive price wise over medical companies fighting for your business? To start with the government has a ton more overhead than the private companies, if these companies which have to accept people and cap costs, who is going to pay for it if these medical care provides tank? The government like AIG, GM? So the government buys more and more companies, so pretty much everything you need will be supplied by the government?

No, thanks.

The public option? How will companies beat out the public option when it'll be back by the government and have access from the treasury to bail them out?

Where is all the health care cuts in cost? I don't see any place where they are lowering the cost of health care, just capping the costs, so who is going to pay the left over? Whether people have insurance or not what is being done about the outrageous cost of medical care period?

The government has the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program, a lot of federal employs don't even use this because they can't afford it either. Who is going to pay for all the applied subsidies cost? Because when people have access to health care it won't be just the poor trying to get these subsidies, it'll be any class that can qualify and probably a lot more people than they estimate.

People think the only people with out insurance are poor people, but even people with good paying jobs don't option for the coverage because it cost too much when you figure in a house payment, cars and commuting, family costs, education and of course good old taxes, the job market... recently unemployed.

It sounds better than what we have, which is a **** load of people without insurance, but it isn't something I would consider the best option. I just have a problem because the public option is going to beat out prices on private companies and it just sounds like another government monopoly to me.

They have the insurance companies, loan companies, car companies, next they take over health care? I just really am not comfortable with how much the government is in private business now.

I love things made in the USA, I just don't want everything I pay for to come from the government.

[GENOMYX]

Holy **** you are confusing the hell out of me. For the record do you want free health care or not. One minute you do the next minute your saying that the Govt control health care is bad. You do know that the free health care is being proposed by the govt right??????

[GENOMYX]

And you do know Im against the current proposal right. Just want to make sure were ont he same page because now it sounds like your arguing the same points.

[RAGEN2008]

I'd like to see free health care, but that's not what that option is.

It's the government competing with private business. I'd like for private companies that have nothing to do with the government to compete for the lowest pricing against each other and have the government pay for it.

[JakeVendetta]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

You can not assume people without heath care are too lazy to work to pay for it. Many people with full-time jobs can't afford the added costs of health plans for an entire family. There are a lot of disabled people as well, the young, the old, people who just lost their jobs. When our unemployment rate is over 10% what do you say to the people without jobs? No one cares you lost your job go F- yourself lazy bastard? Get a new job? It's not all that easy to find a job period right now, much less one that will afford you to cover pricey health care.

A lot of people don't buy health care because 200.00 dollars a month is the difference of them paying rent of eating, a lot of people are barely making it and a lot of people are going in debt more each month.

With the economy you will know there are the poor, middle class, upper class and believe it or not, the poor class are not just lazy and do work full-time. Obviously not everyone in America has the luxury to educate themselves and find a job to make over 100k a year.

The people you call lazy that can't afford health care work at subway, walmart, pepboys make ****ty money yet we need people to work those jobs, those jobs do not pay middle class income, yet people like that work full-time, so calling people too lazy to work or too lazy to take care of themselves is a stretch.

How can American's which you view are too lazy to take care of themselves supposed to pay for the doctor visits, without insurance or money be pay for these visits?

Heath care for only those who can afford might sound like a great plan to those who don't want to pick up the extra costs, but for the people whose only option is to get sick and die seems to be a problem for them.

People can debate what it will cost to give all people health care, and money isn't the problem with America, there is enough that can be put into heath care, the problem is a lot of people get rich on people being sick and a lot of people worry more about losing 2 dollars out of their pocket than some person laying on the sidewalk dead.

Did you not read what i said correctly or at all? Although i will bite my tounge on whether or not i feel the majority of those who are unemployed are lazy. What i was saying is that the majority of deaths and disease are caused by laziness and lack of self responcibility (Obesity stems a long way, not to mention the lack of will power to quit smoking or drinking.) I was simply stating that we need to take responcibility for ourselves as much as we have control over. I mentioned nothing about whether or not i felt the "poor class" deserves free health care(although nothing is free). Your trying to make an arguement with me when i wasnt arguing to begin with. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.

When was the last time you saw someone laying on the sidewalk dead? I find that statement to be an over exaduration.

I was agreeing we need change in healthcare but i find it hard to put 100% faith in what our government does. You can go ahead and keep arguing for whatever reason you see fit, but the way i see it, us arguing about it isnt solving anything.

[GENOMYX]

For Ragen

Dude you need to make your point alot more clear and I dont think you read a lot of what I was posting. What your saying now I can much more understand. Also traces back to where I told you to reference John McCains proposal where his plan was to help americans afford insurance and allowing consumers to purchase insurance in any state forcing a much larger playing fireld for comapnys to compete which would then drive the cost of private health care down. Much more sound plan IMO.

[GENOMYX]

Originally Posted by JakeVendetta

Did you not read what i said correctly or at all? Although i will bite my tounge on whether or not i feel the majority of those who are unemployed are lazy. What i was saying is that the majority of deaths and disease are caused by laziness and lack of self responcibility (Obesity stems a long way, not to mention the lack of will power to quit smoking or drinking.) I was simply stating that we need to take responcibility for ourselves as much as we have control over. I mentioned nothing about whether or not i felt the "poor class" deserves free health care(although nothing is free). Your trying to make an arguement with me when i wasnt arguing to begin with. You sound like you have a chip on your shoulder.

When was the last time you saw someone laying on the sidewalk dead? I find that statement to be an over exaduration.

I was agreeing we need change in healthcare but i find it hard to put 100% faith in what our government does. You can go ahead and keep arguing for whatever reason you see fit, but the way i see it, us arguing about it isnt solving anything.

Thats what I gather. Sounds like something more hit home than whats actually being debated in poiltics today. I value your opinion Jake as you see the issues in health care first hand.

[JakeVendetta]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

That sounds great but do you want all of your health care needs left up to the government? The same people who set aside money for things like 9-11 recovery and left a bunch of people sick without paying out? This pushes for single leadership over health care which is another monopoly in the making.

Who is going to meet all the needs from the government, more government employees? So we create a bigger government?

Do you believe the government will be more competitive price wise over medical companies fighting for your business? To start with the government has a ton more overhead than the private companies, if these companies which have to accept people and cap costs, who is going to pay for it if these medical care provides tank? The government like AIG, GM? So the government buys more and more companies, so pretty much everything you need will be supplied by the government?

No, thanks.

The public option? How will companies beat out the public option when it'll be back by the government and have access from the treasury to bail them out?

Where is all the health care cuts in cost? I don't see any place where they are lowering the cost of health care, just capping the costs, so who is going to pay the left over? Whether people have insurance or not what is being done about the outrageous cost of medical care period?

The government has the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program, a lot of federal employs don't even use this because they can't afford it either. Who is going to pay for all the applied subsidies cost? Because when people have access to health care it won't be just the poor trying to get these subsidies, it'll be any class that can qualify and probably a lot more people than they estimate.

People think the only people with out insurance are poor people, but even people with good paying jobs don't option for the coverage because it cost too much when you figure in a house payment, cars and commuting, family costs, education and of course good old taxes, the job market... recently unemployed.

It sounds better than what we have, which is a **** load of people without insurance, but it isn't something I would consider the best option. I just have a problem because the public option is going to beat out prices on private companies and it just sounds like another government monopoly to me.

They have the insurance companies, loan companies, car companies, next they take over health care? I just really am not comfortable with how much the government is in private business now.

I love things made in the USA, I just don't want everything I pay for to come from the government.

I'm confused now. First you want the government to take control and now you dont??

[GENOMYX]

Same here.

[RAGEN2008]

Originally Posted by JakeVendetta

I'm confused now. First you want the government to take control and now you dont??

I never said I want the government to take control of health care. Regulating and limiting health care costs, sure I am for that, but the only thing I'd like for the government to do is pay for the health care, not provide it. I think the private companies should have to compete for the lowest health care costs.

I don't want these companies to go out of business to have the government bail them out then take them over, that's what I worry the government will do.

And the last time I saw someone in the street was a few weeks back when a kid got shot in the head down the block. But in the sense of someone dead from lack of care, I'd have to say watching people walk past a dead man that died during hurricane Katrina on a bridge.

I don't think it's fair to say 10% of our unemployed who lost jobs from a lot of businesses closing are lazy , that's not very fair either. People lost jobs and don't work because our economy sucks.

[GENOMYX]

Im done here. I dont even know what Im posting about anymore :)

[JakeVendetta]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

I never said I want the government to take control of health care. Regulating and limiting health care costs, sure I am for that, but the only thing I'd like for the government to do is pay for the health care, not provide it. I think the private companies should have to compete for the lowest health care costs.

I don't want these companies to go out of business to have the government bail them out then take them over, that's what I worry the government will do.

And the last time I saw someone in the street was a few weeks back when a kid got shot in the head down the block. But in the sense of someone dead from lack of care, I'd have to say watching people walk past a dead man that died during hurricane Katrina on a bridge.

I'm sorry i must of misunderstood you wanting the goverment to pay for the healthcare and the goverment providing us the healthcare. I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to lower healthcare costs.

Katrina is an isolated incidence. As for someone being shot in the head, emergency care is provided regardless of insurance provider, but you can only do so much to save someone.

[GeorgeT]

Originally Posted by JakeVendetta

I'm sorry i must of misunderstood you wanting the goverment to pay for the healthcare and the goverment providing us the healthcare. I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to lower healthcare costs.

Katrina is an isolated incidence. As for someone being shot in the head, emergency care is provided regardless of insurance provider, but you can only do so much to save someone.

too bad the big boys will lose a bit of money :( it'd be nice though.

[RAGEN2008]

If you look at health care costs America, vs any country for the same surgeries, procedures, treatments, medication, it would blow your mind how much more we pay.

Check out this link, look how much prices vary it's insane just a few cities away some charge almost double. Look at the chart, one hospital is free the other charges 7 dollars a single Tylenol and another is .12 cents.

http://www.stopdown.net/med%20$%20Cal%20disclosure%20wsj.htm

[RAGEN2008]

Originally Posted by JakeVendetta

I'm sorry i must of misunderstood you wanting the goverment to pay for the healthcare and the goverment providing us the healthcare. I think we can all agree that something needs to be done to lower healthcare costs.

Katrina is an isolated incidence. As for someone being shot in the head, emergency care is provided regardless of insurance provider, but you can only do so much to save someone.

Yeah but what I was saying is imagine what costs the parents got from them trying to save the kids life, if they didn't have insurance, yes they must treat you, but if you don't have insurance you're still stuck with the bill and medical care is $$$.

[GENOMYX]

That's apples and oranges in regards to other countries. These things are expensive I agree but comparing international is like asking why a pair of Jordans are 150 dollars here in the U.S and why there 40 dollars over in Thailand. Theres a reason why Nikie's manufacturing plant is in China where they can manufacture at about 3 dollars per shoe and pay there employees 300 USD per year. Thats a whole other topic though maybe Ill start a thread about increasing business taxes :)

As for the link you posted that is ridiculous which is why I agree there needs to be more control but thats also the case in most businesses. I don't think it justifies for free healthcare though

[RAGEN2008]

If we pay taxes and get roads fixed why can't we pay taxes and get health care? I mean if I work till I die in this country why is it too much to ask to get health care?

[T.O]

i have a semi simple solution on the healthcare issue....either you get a job that offeres medical or you go buy it...making me pay for your medical is a stupid idea...just like other programs out there that we pay for. it would be good to get companies to compete to lower costs and not jack them up every year yes but will govt ran health care do that NO, you will be taxed to get a semi lower medical cost. plus with this new bill if you dont have medical you can get a fine, so they are once again telling us what we can do in our lives. Sorry if that made no sense.

[JakeVendetta]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

Yeah but what I was saying is imagine what costs the parents got from them trying to save the kids life, if they didn't have insurance, yes they must treat you, but if you don't have insurance you're still stuck with the bill and medical care is $$$.

Thats true but my statement was in response to your "letting someone lay on the street dying". Everything comes with a price.

[GENOMYX]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

If we pay taxes and get roads fixed why can't we pay taxes and get health care? I mean if I work till I die in this country why is it too much to ask to get health care?

Ill explain this again. Paying taxes for health care is not free health care. You pay you buy. Simple. You said you wanted free health care. Then you said you wanted the govt to pay for it. Now you want to pay taxes to get health care.

If we open up competition between healthcare providers nation wide, they will be forced to lower there price simple economics. You live in the state of CA and you want to raise taxes??? Only benifits you because you dont have insurance, but how many other do and will be forced to pay. Still doesnt mean that it will work because there will be a lot of people that will use the free healthcare who do not pay taxes and Im not getting into that because thats a whole other beast of a debate.

Simple, our health care system works and is amongst the best in the world. Sure theres issues with it and its not perfect but theres much more alternatives that make sense than just handing out free insurance.

Ragen Im sorry that you do not have insurance. It must be frusterating but free is not always the answer.

Also Ill tell you right now put a vote to taxation to pay for health care (which they would have to) and Id put money down that it would fail.

[RAGEN2008]

Of course it would fail, that's what America does, come up with an idea then drag its feet forever, then shoot it down and start over, hell look how long it took women to get the right to vote lol.

I just fail to understand how so many people, making so much money, that are highly educated, can not come up with a plan and implement it.

Obama promised health care to everyone and he better make it happen before he's out of office. Then again people are already calling him liar on TV lol.