[RAGEN2008]

What do you all think about the news on the protests to the tax hikes? I'm really glad people are getting together like this. Our state tax just went up recently, among other things.

Has the state taxes in your state went up?

[Zack]

I think it's stupid as hell dude. People bitch about needless spending when they bought a million tea bags for just one of the protests in one town. People want lower taxes and feel like it's gonna have a huge effect on them. Clinton pulled this higher taxes thing too and it was great. People gotta chill and quit with the stupid symbolic protests.

[WaRz0n3]

I was at the Atlanta tea party.

I work hard to make a living and will not stand idly by while my taxes get raised to support free loaders or those who are irresponsible with loans, living beyond their means.

[RAGEN2008]

The government pretty much takes what they need. When it is not enough they take more. To start with say you pay 30% of your income to FED taxes.

Now you take the money that you have left over which is now a hair over 2/3rds and you go to buy stuff at the store and spend 8-10% of that on state taxes.

I think working, then giving 40% of your money away to taxes is a pretty big deal. I don't think comparing Clinton's tactics to these are comparable. When Clinton was President I actually had money to spend lol. People also had jobs then too.

Raising taxes when 10%, on average of the population is out of work sounds great, but not when your husband or wife lost their job and you don't have the extra money coming in. People either way will continue to spend money. Spending money creates jobs and a demand for goods. Taxes only pay for the programs the government makes that 90% of them I don't support anyways.

You want to be on financial assistance great, we can make a town out in the desert where all the people too lazy to work can go and call it Welfare, California and they can live there for free, but I don't want to pay for it


Our country needs increased spending to create jobs, I'd rather get taxed less and spend more of the money buying goods than giving it to the government that obviously doesn't know what to do with it.

[Zack]

Really? not comparable to Clinton? When G. H.W. Bush came out we were in relatively the same spot as where we are now, and essentially they're doing the same **** to get us out of it. It takes time dude. It ain't gonna happen over night. Sorta like how black people thought that once Obama got in office EVERYTHING will change for them.... not happening.

[RAGEN2008]

Nation debt increase under previous presidents.

1989-1993 George H. W. Bush +13.1%

1993-1997 Bill Clinton -0.6%

1997-2001 Bill Clinton -8.2%

2001-2005 George W. Bush +6.9%

2005-2009 George W. Bush +3.9%

Unemployment rate was some where in the 4.5% range under Clinton. So you can see that it wasn't even close to the same, under Clinton the debt dropped both of his terms, there is no comparing two terms of increase debt to two terms of decreasing debt.

The stimulus package is going to do a whole bunch of nothing. If you look into it, it spends a bunch of money of on crap that won't even provide jobs to 90% of the typical American's who need them. Planting grass and building some roads, along with fixing up some schools isn't going to reshape America. Bailing out banks that still foreclose peoples homes and then spent it on bonuses to employees. Sorry but I am not impressed with anything that has happened under the new President.

The only thing I see happening is the government creating a monopoly out of the largest financial institutions in the country.

[Chuck]

Well The tea partys were not about taxes, it was about alot more than that. personally both Obama and Bush suck, Im not going to go off like I would like to but it just boils down to personal responsibility or the lack of it these days. People rely too much on the gov. to take care of them when people need to get off their asses and do something about it. What happend to hard work and getting your hads dirty, people want stuff handed to them these days, it seems no one is willing to do what it takes to become prosperous

[RAGEN2008]

I think you have a point. It is a lot more than taxes. It seems like the government is involved in EVERYTHING these days.

Why the hell is the government borrowing to bail out companies? To save jobs? Then they give its employees bonuses. Where is the regulation?

How is this a free country if the government decided which companies stay open or close?

The more you make, the more you have to pay in taxes? Why? Because you make more so you can afford it? That's fing BS. The harder you work the more you get bent over by uncle sam, F that.

We have too big of a government and it spends way too much money. When they screw things up we pay for it. Obviously the trend of spending a lot of money and all of these programs don't work, so why the need to go out and blow more money like this stimulus package?

All of these people getting welfare and free stuff needs to be downsized. Sorry, but everyone needs to support themselves, you can't pay for health care or support everyone that doesn't want to work. If you're handicapped or have a legitimate reason sure you need help, but some chick getting free money cause she's a stupid woman that got knocked up and wants to sit at home for the next 5 years on welfare and never work in her life isn't my problem.

The government needs to let people sink or swim. Simple survival of the fittest, if you're too fing lazy to work to support and feed yourself then you need to die.

[Clean]

These "tea parties" aren't about taxes at all.

Take a good look at the audience. Most have "NO-Bama" signs up or anti-Obama gear somewhere on them. Most are also white too and you see few minorities there. I am not implying race at all btw, but just the fact that these are the McCain voters who are pissed they lost the election and are now using this tea party tax thing as a way to protest the Republican loss of the election.


Most of the people at these tea parties are ignorant too. 95% of them are getting a taxcut under Obama. Let's be honest here.

[mikeh40+]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

I think you have a point. It is a lot more than taxes. It seems like the government is involved in EVERYTHING these days.

Why the hell is the government borrowing to bail out companies? To save jobs? Then they give its employees bonuses. Where is the regulation?

How is this a free country if the government decided which companies stay open or close?

The more you make, the more you have to pay in taxes? Why? Because you make more so you can afford it? That's fing BS. The harder you work the more you get bent over by uncle sam, F that.

We have too big of a government and it spends way too much money. When they screw things up we pay for it. Obviously the trend of spending a lot of money and all of these programs don't work, so why the need to go out and blow more money like this stimulus package?

All of these people getting welfare and free stuff needs to be downsized. Sorry, but everyone needs to support themselves, you can't pay for health care or support everyone that doesn't want to work. If you're handicapped or have a legitimate reason sure you need help, but some chick getting free money cause she's a stupid woman that got knocked up and wants to sit at home for the next 5 years on welfare and never work in her life isn't my problem.

The government needs to let people sink or swim. Simple survival of the fittest, if you're too fing lazy to work to support and feed yourself then you need to die.

pretty harsh words there at the end bro, really now, support and feed yourself or you need to die?? naw thats not the way it should be, you gotta keep in mind also that not everyone around is even in the middle class, look at the people whom are in the lower to poverty classes,

every little thing that goes up in price causes a crap storm of hurt for these people, no health care , dental , eye exams you name it, i do think it should be part of the entire nation to ensure that even the little people have the basic needs covered, what bugs me more than the free handouts that people get who are in need , not counting the one`s that abuse the system,since there will always be those kind of people no matter where you live,

>> its the corporate America C.O`s whom are making in one day what the average person makes in a year, and then the bonus`s and stock packages in the millions and millions of dollars, and who is the first to cry about cutting jobs,, well its not the worker is it, no it the big Boss man , looking to keep his billion dollar a year job while we work our selves harder with less benefits, watching the price of food and gas and everything you need to live on increase in price, while more and more people are without a job,,

so if the wealthy have to pay in more taxes tough shiit for them, seems to me that they are also the ones that find a lawyer that finds them as many tax loop holes as possible so they dont pay as much as they should in the first place,
how many houses do these guys need anyways, its totally absurd if you really think about the difference between the working classes and the wealthy,now i have nothing against making your own money along the way and if your successful then great


but to be realistic were really talking about the Big Boys that run everything who are causing all the fuss with the economy,

its not going to matter who is the president , black,white, woman or what have you, the entire system is corrupt and out of control,

i think between all the members in this forum we all could come up with a plan that would cut the crap out of the national deficit, starting at the top and putting limits on what some of these good old boys in the government can actually do without some consequence to there actions, really how many more bills do we need, seems every time you read the paper another bill is up for vote on some stupid idea to ratify another stupid idea that was`nt working in the first place,

we as a people seem to have very little choice in what goes down, we elect who we feel is the better of the worst and cross our fingers and ride along, i do think that getting everyone some sort of health care and getting more money for the kids of the future is a start in the right direction, to many issues to keep going on,, sorry if its a bit winded,,

[Zack]

I'm definitely siding with Mike on that last statement of Ragen's post... that's harsh dude. Like seriously there are actual people who do need help and what you said was very incendiary to the situation. It's things like that that give Americans a bad name around the world sometimes. I know it's you're opinion and you have a full right to it, but that's straight ****ed up dude.

[RAGEN2008]

How many thousands of years have humans walked this earth and lived?

The human race has survived and evolved long before free hand outs existed.

People worked, farmed, hunted, fished for thousand of years and because I think people should take care of themselves or go without that's harsh? That is how life has been since the beginning of time, before recorded history.

The problem is people are always looking for the easy way out, before welfare and food stamps and all the other "financial assistance" programs you had to work to feed yourself and your family or you died.

My statement was simple, if you're too lazy to support yourself then you should be left to die. If you're a person who is disabled and can't physically or mentally support yourself, you need help, but to get aid because you're lazy and don't want to work... screw that.

The strong survive and the weak perish. It's biology of the simplest form.

There is not enough money in our country to just support people that don't want to work, we're already trillions of dollars in debt and going more into debt each day. It doesn't matter what I think we should do because we are so far in debt and state and federal funding is so taxed there won't be money left to hand out anyways.

Expecting people to support themselves to survive isn't a selfish request, what do we do next, start wiping peoples asses when they get too lazy to do that too?

[mikeh40+]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

How many thousands of years have humans walked this earth and lived?

The human race has survived and evolved long before free hand outs existed.

true the human race has survived, but there were also people that gave help out to those less fortunate also, if were all were asking for handouts then that would be a different thing all together, since you want to bring up the past in this debate, handouts for the poor or those in need has been around for as long as there have been people that have a ounce of caring in them, in fact back years ago when people did not even lock their houses because they trusted people not to break into them, they also had more feelings for those that were hard up on their luck, you can do some research and hear stories of how people would take in a stranger to feed or cloth them, happened even back when Jesus walked the earth,

People worked, farmed, hunted, fished for thousand of years and because I think people should take care of themselves or go without that's harsh? That is how life has been since the beginning of time, before recorded history.

no its not that you think people should do what they can to help themselves that is harsh, its the statement you made about them not being able to that they should up and die account of it, and lets be blunt here, were not living in the stone age here, we have the ability to help others, that is a god givin right, a moral obligation, its called charity bro,, strongest of the fittest in something you would hear from some one that only cares for themselves and not for their fellow man, or woman for that matter,, i wonder if you would stick by your statement if someone you knew was down and out, would you tell them well tough ****, dude your on your own sorry about your luck... i would hope not,

The problem is people are always looking for the easy way out, before welfare and food stamps and all the other "financial assistance" programs you had to work to feed yourself and your family or you died.

some what yes, and like i said before there will always be people that will take advantage of the system, the programs are designed to truly help those that are in need, they have reached rock bottom, sorry but just picking up a plow and ox and go till some soil in this day and age just is not a option, since the majority of farm land is all bought and worked already, where you suggest someone go find a place to start from scratch when they have no money, no job or no skills ?

My statement was simple, if you're too lazy to support yourself then you should be left to die. If you're a person who is disabled and can't physically or mentally support yourself, you need help, but to get aid because you're lazy and don't want to work... screw that.

your statement is totally bullshiit dude, no offense, but thats about the most inhumane thing a person can say, yes if your one of those people that are to lazy to work then they need to help to get them into the mindset that this in not the way to live your life, however it does not warrant death from it

The strong survive and the weak perish. It's biology of the simplest form.

yea maybe in the days of the cave man, its was that way, but i believe we are more as advanced mentally or technically than they were back then, see thats how the dictators feel, no regards to the deaths of the people that they have the power to help.. its not right, what your suggesting is to take a Hugh leap back to the days of kings and tyrants, and even then the average people would help take care of those that were in need,

There is not enough money in our country to just support people that don't want to work, we're already trillions of dollars in debt and going more into debt each day. It doesn't matter what I think we should do because we are so far in debt and state and federal funding is so taxed there won't be money left to hand out anyways.

again i disagree , there is money available for everything from bailing out the big 3 auto makers, the banks , to support a war, rebuild buildings, roads, plus the 1,000`s of studies that the government throws money into, that they could revamp things to help support the poor or lower class people

Expecting people to support themselves to survive isn't a selfish request, what do we do next, start wiping peoples asses when they get too lazy to do that too?

no expecting people to want to survive is not a selfish request, but you are missing many things and seeing it with blinders on,, why do you suppose there are so many organizations available nation wide , in every city to help those people get back on track, you seem to have a very bad feeling toward people that are in need, but remember dude, it only takes one tragic event in your life to wipe out everything you have, then what are you going to do?ask for help or are you going to live by your statement and just die since you cant make it on your own??

[RAGEN2008]

Survival of the fittest will always apply, it's how ALL life evolved since the beginning of our time, it is how things work every day in present time and will always work. It's simple science.

Look at Africa and watch innocent people get shot in the street when their own government is stealing their medical supplies and food for themselves. That happen in caveman days? I bet it's happening today.

You ever see a corporation take over another corporation? What happens to all those people who lose their jobs? When's the last time that happened?

People take from others every single day, if you really think that will stop, then you would have to change human nature which in itself is to survive, whether it costs the lives of others or not.

People all over the world, not in caveman days, today, April 2009, take from others to survive. Expecting to live a civilized life and that all people will come together is the biggest joke I have ever heard in my life.

Call it negative, I'll call it realistic. Look online and see how many people died today that were murdered, starved or didn't get medical care and died and evaluate how uncaveman like the world today is.

[Julio]

I dislike when people connect strength with “survival of the fittest”. Strength has little to do with it and saying the strong survive and the weak will perish is a super over simplification of it. Survival of the fittest is being able to adapt to what nature gives you. It does not depend only on the species next to you. And back when humans needed to be in that survival of the fittest zones it didn’t compose of human vs. human it was human, vs. natures and other species, not human vs. humans. Stop with the over simplification please, your ruining such a strong idea into crap that religious people will try to rip on because people like you are saying stuff like that.

Expecting to live civilized might be a joke, yes but in reality we are no were civilized people want to think they are but we are not. But that does not mean you got to be like a barbarian and go hack and slash things and say barbaric things (I am not saying you are it’s just an example.) don’t blame it on people that cant work either or what ever your so pissed about, we all know that society consist of people stepping over people and there will always be that because that’s how society is structure. It’s sad and I hate it but that’s what it is. Then you blame them for something the society you live in has created. Stop believing so much in the media, or what you see is not always what it is. We all know some countries in Africa are slowly killing themselves, but why are you so sure it’s the government over there or who ever you’re blaming. And Africa is one of the few countries in that situation, there are others.

I am just one person in the masses and I am one of the few who don’t care about humanity and some of the thing it has done. But I do want to help those who can’t help themselves and also I want to bring pain on those who take away because of greed. but who am I, a nobody and I don’t care I just do my thing and help those around me who will help me and I will help to survive or what ever.

[I 4m Legend]

Government intervention in the private sector is ludicrous imo. The government is eroding our economic freedoms by rewarding big business for failing. Simple as that.

[hotdoggy]

Originally Posted by I 4m Legend

Government intervention in the private sector is ludicrous imo. The government is eroding our economic freedoms by rewarding big business for failing. Simple as that.

Its all about the money!!!!!!!!! follow the money!!!!!!

[hotdoggy]

Originally Posted by hotdoggy

Its all about the money!!!!!!!!! follow the money!!!!!!

That brings you to the Unions, and then that brings you to a permint democrat voating block........ isnt that nice....

[Zack]

wow.... I don't think I've ever seen somebody quote themselves and respond to it... you sir are getting reps for that.

[hotdoggy]

Originally Posted by Zack

I think it's stupid as hell dude. People bitch about needless spending when they bought a million tea bags for just one of the protests in one town. People want lower taxes and feel like it's gonna have a huge effect on them. Clinton pulled this higher taxes thing too and it was great. People gotta chill and quit with the stupid symbolic protests.

The difference is that they made the decision to buy the tea bags not some money grubbing congressmen with an agenda to bloat the government and give them more power.

[RAGEN2008]

I have a problem with how little control people have over their own lives these days. You pay a lot of money in taxes, paying at least 1/4 of your income back to the government itself is a problem.

State tax, fed tax, even business like cell phone companies have all these bull sh*t taxes they throw in. When you add up how much little taxes here and there are you're talking 30% of your income or more a year back to the government. Does anyone else have a problem losing 1/3 of their income?

You're told what you can and can't do.

You're told what you can and can't put into your own body in your own home.

You're told what is right and what is wrong.

You're told who to like and who to hate.

How many people in America like people from Afghanistan or people from Iraq? We went to war in the middle east because one group of nut jobs crashed planes into the two towers on 9-11. So now our government took on the responsibility to rid the world of terrorism?

How can our government decide to end terrorism 1/2 way across the world when it can't even stop crime or end hunger within our own country?

Then they paint a picture that people in Iraq are all crazy and terrorists, seriously if any other country's soldiers came door to door to America and walked in your house with your family sitting there what would you do? I'd shoot at their ass too.

Being American is being a citizen of this country, it doesn't mean you agree with or support the a-holes running the country, yet our government makes statements like war on terror, weapons of mass destruction and ridding the evil across the world, they pretty much try to justify any thing they do, as for me I don't trust or believe anything some lying ass politician says.

Politician are in the news for lying and stealing money and wasting funds every day right in front of our own face. If I had a tea bag party I'd rather throw it at the faces of the pile of crap running this country because writing a letter and voting obviously doesn't do a damn thing besides decide which next liar will lie to you.

[hotdoggy]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

I have a problem with how little control people have over their own lives these days. You pay a lot of money in taxes, paying at least 1/4 of your income back to the government itself is a problem.

State tax, fed tax, even business like cell phone companies have all these bull sh*t taxes they throw in. When you add up how much little taxes here and there are you're talking 30% of your income or more a year back to the government. Does anyone else have a problem losing 1/3 of their income?

You're told what you can and can't do.

You're told what you can and can't put into your own body in your own home.

You're told what is right and what is wrong.

You're told who to like and who to hate.

How many people in America like people from Afghanistan or people from Iraq? We went to war in the middle east because one group of nut jobs crashed planes into the two towers on 9-11. So now our government took on the responsibility to rid the world of terrorism?

How can our government decide to end terrorism 1/2 way across the world when it can't even stop crime or end hunger within our own country?

Then they paint a picture that people in Iraq are all crazy and terrorists, seriously if any other country's soldiers came door to door to America and walked in your house with your family sitting there what would you do? I'd shoot at their ass too.

Being American is being a citizen of this country, it doesn't mean you agree with or support the a-holes running the country, yet our government makes statements like war on terror, weapons of mass destruction and ridding the evil across the world, they pretty much try to justify any thing they do, as for me I don't trust or believe anything some lying ass politician says.

Politician are in the news for lying and stealing money and wasting funds every day right in front of our own face. If I had a tea bag party I'd rather throw it at the faces of the pile of crap running this country because writing a letter and voting obviously doesn't do a damn thing besides decide which next liar will lie to you.

Both parties try to hide the real issue. Its not Dems and Reps going back and forth on the same old issues.. Its all about the amount of government in our lives. We are suppose to be free, yet if you look around you will find countrys that have more personal freedoms then we now do... (England) (Japan) This happens becaluse we all get cought up in the Rep vs Dem crap.. and forget that they are controlling the issues, and not bringing up the truth.. Its all about the feds getting power...power means money... thats what they like~ imo...

[RAGEN2008]

When our government decides to fire the CEO of a company that is very obvious it's all about money.

Does every one not notice with all the giving out of money (stimulus) our government is tied up in some of the biggest financial institutions out there today?

The people (us) don't own part of those companies, the government does.

As far as countries, the only thing the USA is #1 in these days is probably the highest debt and prison populations lol.

[Thomas_Rivera]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

I have a problem with how little control people have over their own lives these days. You pay a lot of money in taxes, paying at least 1/4 of your income back to the government itself is a problem.

State tax, fed tax, even business like cell phone companies have all these bull sh*t taxes they throw in. When you add up how much little taxes here and there are you're talking 30% of your income or more a year back to the government. Does anyone else have a problem losing 1/3 of their income?

You're told what you can and can't do.

You're told what you can and can't put into your own body in your own home.

You're told what is right and what is wrong.

You're told who to like and who to hate.

How many people in America like people from Afghanistan or people from Iraq? We went to war in the middle east because one group of nut jobs crashed planes into the two towers on 9-11. So now our government took on the responsibility to rid the world of terrorism?

How can our government decide to end terrorism 1/2 way across the world when it can't even stop crime or end hunger within our own country?

Then they paint a picture that people in Iraq are all crazy and terrorists, seriously if any other country's soldiers came door to door to America and walked in your house with your family sitting there what would you do? I'd shoot at their ass too.

Being American is being a citizen of this country, it doesn't mean you agree with or support the a-holes running the country, yet our government makes statements like war on terror, weapons of mass destruction and ridding the evil across the world, they pretty much try to justify any thing they do, as for me I don't trust or believe anything some lying ass politician says.

Politician are in the news for lying and stealing money and wasting funds every day right in front of our own face. If I had a tea bag party I'd rather throw it at the faces of the pile of crap running this country because writing a letter and voting obviously doesn't do a damn thing besides decide which next liar will lie to you.

Being told what you can and can't do is part of being in a society, that's just how it is, in any country you have that, some are less limiting than others but offer less protection and opportunities etc. Being told what you can and can not put in your body, well thats another debate but it goes with my previous statement.

Last two, yes you are told whats right and whats wrong and who to hate or like, but its up to you to decide that ultimately. I dislike Glenn Beck but I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of people that like him.

Do I mind losing 1/3 of my income to live in the US, no. Not at all. I get to come home do what I like, have a full fridge, money to go out. By the way, US taxes are some of the lowest in the world.

[RAGEN2008]

Originally Posted by Thomas_Rivera

Being told what you can and can't do is part of being in a society, that's just how it is, in any country you have that, some are less limiting than others but offer less protection and opportunities etc. Being told what you can and can not put in your body, well thats another debate but it goes with my previous statement.

Last two, yes you are told whats right and whats wrong and who to hate or like, but its up to you to decide that ultimately. I dislike Glenn Beck but I'm sure there are hundreds of thousands of people that like him.

Do I mind losing 1/3 of my income to live in the US, no. Not at all. I get to come home do what I like, have a full fridge, money to go out. By the way, US taxes are some of the lowest in the world.

Considering we don't offer country wide health care like some countries, have a growing unemployment rate, and high housing costs you don't think there is a problem?

Keep in mind a lot of people can't afford to come home to a home because they can't afford anything besides living with relatives, or an apartment or may not have a place to live period. There are a lot of people in our country with no food in there refrigerator.

As far as other countries and tax rates, the US has a high cost of living and compared to a lot of large countries we have a high amount of taxes, we also pay state tax and utilities also have their own taxes, when you add it up here in the US we give a lot of money to various taxes.

You'd think in times like this they'd lower taxes so people have more money to spend to put back into the country to get some growth going.

Consider this, in the US in many, many cities, minimum wage is not enough to feed, house and provide transportation to an individual. To me that is a problem that people who chose to work, who may not be educated or have higher paying jobs can't make it on their own.

Then there is medicare and SSI, which in so many years won't have enough funds to even support the old.

[Thomas_Rivera]

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

Considering we don't offer country wide health care like some countries, have a growing unemployment rate, and high housing costs you don't think there is a problem?

Keep in mind a lot of people can't afford to come home to a home because they can't afford anything besides living with relatives, or an apartment or may not have a place to live period. There are a lot of people in our country with no food in there refrigerator.

As far as other countries and tax rates, the US has a high cost of living and compared to a lot of large countries we have a high amount of taxes, we also pay state tax and utilities also have their own taxes, when you add it up here in the US we give a lot of money to various taxes.

You'd think in times like this they'd lower taxes so people have more money to spend to put back into the country to get some growth going.

Consider this, in the US in many, many cities, minimum wage is not enough to feed, house and provide transportation to an individual. To me that is a problem that people who chose to work, who may not be educated or have higher paying jobs can't make it on their own.

Then there is medicare and SSI, which in so many years won't have enough funds to even support the old.

I don't think there is a problem. Those who can do will and those who can't just won't. I don't think health care should be free, competition and pricing breeds quality.

Minimum wage isn't enough for one person to survive on their own. But two ore more people living on minimum wage is pretty good :)

And what you said is pretty contradictive

Originally Posted by RAGEN2008

The government needs to let people sink or swim. Simple survival of the fittest, if you're too fing lazy to work to support and feed yourself then you need to die.

By your logic they should just work harder to support themselves.

[RAGEN2008]

There is a difference between people too lazy to work and people who can't get higher paying jobs. People that don't want to work and get welfare and stay home because they are lazy is nothing like a person who can't get a better job than minimum wage.

2 minimum wage jobs in California is about 2,000 a month after taxes considering a lot of places to rent are 1,500 or more here I'd say that isn't enough even with two people.