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Am I eating too big of a Postwork out meal?
Old 01-15-2007, 11:16 PM   #1
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After workouts I am trying to pack as much nutrients as possible. But, I'm wondering if it's too much. I usally eat 1 Chicken Breast, 1 Sweet Potato, small Protein Shake, and 5 mg of Creatine, and lots of water. Other than the fact I feel like I'm going to EXPLODE afterward, am I overdoing it?

P.S. I'm 205 lbs, attempting to bulk up
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 01:22 AM   #2
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Personally I don' think thats enough food. I could be wrong here, but I after my workouts I usually take my creatine immediately after, then probably 30-40 minutes later I'm eating a 1/2 lb to 3/4lb of meat, a potato with butter, green beans, salad, and at least 10 ounces of milk. Maybe sometimes even a banana for fruit. I am also bulking. I'm 6'1" 187lbs.
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 06:53 AM   #3
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I've had my best results having a post work out shake (20 minutes after the work out) which is high in carbs as to stop the catabolic reaction. 2 hours after your work out, your body will be in an anabolic state and that is the proper time for a meal (from what I've read).

When you work out, you generally use up all of your energy during the workout, and your body will dip into reserves. Your body will more naturally break down muscle fiber for energy (thus the catabolic state), and that occurs immediately after your work out.

You body then begins to repair muscle/build muscle a couple hours after working out, so that is your anabolic state. It is important to have fuel for both conditions. The first helps preserve muscle, the second helps build it.

I had links to post here, but as I'm a newb, I can't post them yet. Go to the wikipedia and look up "catabolic" and "anabolism" for a description. Everyone is built differently, so timing may very.
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 11:04 AM   #4
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after a workout u need fast digesting carbs immediately.(white bread-fruit-etc.) also need protien shake wit at least 40g.- what works for me is protien shake-2-3 slice white bread 2-bananas. 1hr.-1 1/2 hr. later then a whole meal usually steak and rice or chicken and pasta
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 12:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman3000
I've had my best results having a post work out shake (20 minutes after the work out) which is high in carbs as to stop the catabolic reaction. 2 hours after your work out, your body will be in an anabolic state and that is the proper time for a meal (from what I've read).

When you work out, you generally use up all of your energy during the workout, and your body will dip into reserves. Your body will more naturally break down muscle fiber for energy (thus the catabolic state), and that occurs immediately after your work out.

You body then begins to repair muscle/build muscle a couple hours after working out, so that is your anabolic state. It is important to have fuel for both conditions. The first helps preserve muscle, the second helps build it.

I had links to post here, but as I'm a newb, I can't post them yet. Go to the wikipedia and look up "catabolic" and "anabolism" for a description. Everyone is built differently, so timing may very.
1. Any insulin is anti-catabolic and its not dose dependent. In other words, a very small amount is all that is really needed since GLUT4 is increase by exercise anyway. You are basically trying to kick open a door that already open. The notion you need fast acting carbs to achieve this is inaccurate when in fact it happens regardless of the carb source. Glycogen re-synthesis doesn't correlate with protein synthesis.

2. You don't even come CLOSE to using ALL your energy during a resistance training workout. That isn't even remotely true. Your body doesn't break down muscle for energy during a workout unless you are in a complete starved state and unless you are 1-2 weeks from contest time its not a concern at all.

3. Your body is in continuous breadkown/repair. Protein synthesis is a constant process and doesn't stop and start. The rates are increased and decreased based on numerous factors and the most important factor in increasing rates of protein synthesis is the ingestion of amino acids (protein).

You description of the physiological process of post workout nutrition are highly inaccurate.
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 12:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by traps
after a workout u need fast digesting carbs immediately.(white bread-fruit-etc.) also need protien shake wit at least 40g.- what works for me is protien shake-2-3 slice white bread 2-bananas. 1hr.-1 1/2 hr. later then a whole meal usually steak and rice or chicken and pasta
Not really (not to mention fruit is low-mod GI). The amounts of insulin to exert its anti-catabolic effects is pretty small.
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 01:13 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo
1. Any insulin is anti-catabolic and its not dose dependent. In other words, a very small amount is all that is really needed since GLUT4 is increase by exercise anyway. You are basically trying to kick open a door that already open. The notion you need fast acting carbs to achieve this is inaccurate when in fact it happens regardless of the carb source. Glycogen re-synthesis doesn't correlate with protein synthesis.

2. You don't even come CLOSE to using ALL your energy during a resistance training workout. That isn't even remotely true. Your body doesn't break down muscle for energy during a workout unless you are in a complete starved state and unless you are 1-2 weeks from contest time its not a concern at all.

3. Your body is in continuous breadkown/repair. Protein synthesis is a constant process and doesn't stop and start. The rates are increased and decreased based on numerous factors and the most important factor in increasing rates of protein synthesis is the ingestion of amino acids (protein).

You description of the physiological process of post workout nutrition are highly inaccurate.
I wrote a reply citing my sources, but can't as I don't have 15 posts here yet.

I'm going to ask you to post a link to your sources, as I have three different ones that say:

Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void. To sum up the post-workout scenario: cortisol increases, and insulin decreases. This scenario presents several needs to our starving bodies.

or very similar. I've read things like this going on a year, so if you have links to articles that claim otherwise, I'd like to see them
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman3000
I wrote a reply citing my sources, but can't as I don't have 15 posts here yet.

I'm going to ask you to post a link to your sources, as I have three different ones that say:

Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void. To sum up the post-workout scenario: cortisol increases, and insulin decreases. This scenario presents several needs to our starving bodies.

or very similar. I've read things like this going on a year, so if you have links to articles that claim otherwise, I'd like to see them
Sure, what studies do you want?

The problem is you are posting links to definitions to conditions which aren't present during post exercise (resistance training).

Gluconeogenesis is an ongoing process that happens all hours of the day. The ratios in which this happens determines your protein turnover rate. The problem is you are looking at the extreme situations without understanding the situation at all.

My sources are the classroom, not authors of internet articles. Now if you want studies straight from pubmed showing the conditions present post exercise I certainly can do that as well. In the meantime you might want to get the basics of human physiology down before you go trying to explain the details.

Giving me a definition of cortisol, something I learned in Nutrition 101 years ago, is an example of you giving me a condition that maybe a marathon runner would see, not a bb'er during a resistance training sessions that's consuming adequate calories.
 
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Last edited by Kramer; 01-16-2007 at 04:07 PM.
 
 
Old 01-16-2007, 04:10 PM   #9
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Amino acids regulate skeletal muscle PHAS-I and p70 S6-kinase phosphorylation independently of insulin
W. Long, L. Saffer, L. Wei, and E. J. Barrett

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

Refeeding reverses the muscle protein loss seen with fasting. The physiological regulators and cellular control sites responsible for this reversal are incompletely defined. Phosphorylation of phosphorylated heat-acid stabled protein (PHAS-I) frees eukaryotic initiation factor 4E (eIF4E) and stimulates protein synthesis by accelerating translation initiation. Phosphorylation of p70 S6-kinase (p70S6k) is thought to be involved in the regulation of the synthesis of some ribosomsal proteins and other selected proteins with polypyrimidine clusters near the transcription start site. We examined whether phosphorylation of PHAS-I and p70S6k was increased by feeding and determined the separate effects of insulin and amino acids on PHAS-I and p70S6k phosphorylation in rat skeletal muscle in vivo. Muscle was obtained from rats fed ad libitum or fasted overnight (n = 5 each). Other fasted rats were infused with insulin (3 µU · min-1 · kg-1, euglycemic clamp), amino acids, or the two combined. Gastrocnemius was freeze-clamped, and PHAS-I and p70S6k phosphorylation was measured by quantifying the several phosphorylated forms of these proteins seen on Western blots. We observed that feeding increased phosphorylation of both PHAS-I and p70S6k (P < 0.05). Infusion of amino acids alone reproduced the effect of feeding. Physiological hyperinsulinemia increased p70S6K (P < 0.05) but not PHAS-I phosphorylation (P = 0.98). Addition of insulin to amino acid infusion was no more effective than amino acids alone in promoting PHAS-I and p70S6k phosphorylation. We conclude that amino acid infusion alone enhances the activation of the protein synthetic pathways in vivo in rat skeletal muscle. This effect is not dependent on increases in plasma insulin and simulates the activation of protein synthesis that accompanies normal feeding.


Amino Acids Stimulate Translation Initiation and Protein Synthesis through an Akt-Independent Pathway in Human Skeletal Muscle
Zhenqi Liu, Linda A. Jahn, Liping Wei, Wen Long and Eugene J. Barrett

Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908

Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Zhenqi Liu, M.D., Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, P.O. Box 801410, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908. E-mail: zl3e@virginia.edu.

Abstract

Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70S6K) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover.

Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser473, but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70S6K (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


Effect of carbohydrate intake on net muscle protein synthesis during recovery from resistance exercise
Elisabet Børsheim, Melanie G. Cree, Kevin D. Tipton, Tabatha A. Elliott, Asle Aarsland, and Robert R. Wolfe

Department of Surgery, Metabolism Unit, Shriners Hospitals for Children-Galveston, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston, Texas 77550

Submitted 3 April 2003 ; accepted in final form 24 October 2003

The purpose of this study was to determine the effect of ingestion of 100 g of carbohydrates on net muscle protein balance (protein synthesis minus protein breakdown) after resistance exercise. Two groups of eight subjects performed a resistance exercise bout (10 sets of 8 repetitions of leg presses at 80% of 1-repetition maximum) before they rested in bed for 4 h. One group (CHO) received a drink consisting of 100 g of carbohydrates 1 h postexercise. The other group (Pla) received a noncaloric placebo drink. Leg amino acid metabolism was determined by infusion of 2H5- or 13C6-labeled phenylalanine, sampling from femoral artery and vein, and muscle biopsies from vastus lateralis. Drink intake did not affect arterial insulin concentration in Pla, whereas insulin increased several times after the drink in CHO (P < 0.05 vs. Pla). Arterial phenylalanine concentration fell slightly after the drink in CHO. Net muscle protein balance between synthesis and breakdown did not change in Pla, whereas it improved in CHO from -17 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 before drink to an average of -4 ± 4 and 0 ± 3 nmol·ml-1·100 ml leg-1 during the second and third hour after the drink, respectively (P < 0.05 vs. Pla during last hour). The improved net balance in CHO was due primarily to a progressive decrease in muscle protein breakdown. We conclude that ingestion of carbohydrates improved net leg protein balance after resistance exercise. However, the effect was minor and delayed compared with the previously reported effect of ingestion of amino acids.


Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (&gt;/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (&lt;1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (&gt;1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.







If you want to discuss the situation, you need to take into the conditions post workout, not post marathon.
 
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Last edited by Kramer; 01-16-2007 at 05:14 PM.
 
 
Old 01-16-2007, 04:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdman3000

Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void. To sum up the post-workout scenario: cortisol increases, and insulin decreases. This scenario presents several needs to our starving bodies.
Whoever wrote that, grossly misinterprets the conditions in which this is done. In no way is a bb'er working out mimic the starved state in which both liver and muscle glycogen are depleted. In fact, resistance training in itself is not a glycogen depleting form of exercise...running for 20 miles is....

From a researcher:

"This entire thread is marred by the simple fact that weight training is not a glycogen-depleting form of exercise. Sure, there will be some loss of glycogen stores, but nowhere near what is found from the type of glycogen-depleting protocols used in refeeding experiments. The type of high-intensity, rest-between-sets of weight lifting taxes the ATP-CP system heavily, but only has a small to moderate effect on glycogen reserves unless training volume is extremely high and/or there is little or no rest between sets and exercises.

Not that this automatically invalidates everything that's been said, but it seems to me that we may well be comparing apples to oranges here. I know of no published studies which look at the effect of the post-workout meal on protein synthesis/degradation or glycogen synthesis after weight training.

Janet Rankin did such a study two years ago in our department, and found no effect. Such an "unexciting" finding meant that it didn't get published, unfortunately."
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:51 PM   #11
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good post... but am I reading it correctly that for muscle developement You want 1.2g of carbs per KG of body weight in addition to amino acid intake every hour post workout for 4 hours? This doesn't relate carbohydrates to their glycemic value either... is this study using long grain white rice , a biggie size coke from mcdonalds, or a giant bowl of oatmeal? Kinda makes a big difference on what kinda insulin is being called upon.. got any more specific data that can actually be beneficial, since you did take 15min of my life reading that.
 
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Old 01-16-2007, 04:54 PM   #12
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