[jstone28]

Originally Posted by Bobo

1. The original question was during the middle of the night. This is a time in which the metabolic rate slows for a reason.

2. I never said BEFORE bedtime was bad. The need to wake in the middle of the night to eat is not there.

3. Glycogen stores are full already and sleep does not drain glycogen stores. It would be nice if the body flushed out excess nutrients because therefore we would never get fat but the bodies first instinct is always survival therefore excess energy will be stored as fat first and foremost.

4. It won't do a thing. You seem stuck on this idea that sleep is a catabolic activity. Its not.

heres a T-nation Article on noctural feedings.

STOP the Catabolic Insanity!
by David J. Barr
I'm still amazed by the consistency and dedication with which most hardcore guys follow their daily diet, yet allow for a catabolic starvation phase every single night. I mean, most bodybuilders (competitive or not) eat every 2-3 hours for a variety of reasons (which have been hammered into you more often than you can count). Then they go for up to 10 hours without eating anything!
While you may not actually sleep for 10 hours straight, you should realize that even going 6 hours without food puts you into an easily avoidable catabolic situation. The solution is to simply consume one or two nocturnal meals to maintain body energy stores and protein synthesis, or at the very least minimize protein degradation.
UW strength coach Nick Polasek has a great idea that describes the ideal situation for waking up in the night to eat: "You want to have your drink right beside the bed, fall asleep, only to wake up 8 hours later to discover your drink container empty."

We all know that our bodies don't stop requiring nutrients and energy during the night, even though we don't usually provide it with either. This means that our bodies have to draw from it's own sources; in a sense we are fasting. For example, some of our cells may need amino acids throughout the night, and if we don't provide them constantly we must break down our own body proteins to supply them.
Sadly, many people don't consider nocturnal feedings because they only sleep for 6 hours or so. What's scary is that carb breakdown can begin as little as 3 hours after a meal, at least in rats (Palou et al., 1981). While rats have a much higher metabolic rate than humans, our elevated muscle mass greatly increases our own rate

Unfortunately, muscle protein synthesis can fall to as little as one half its level in a fed state, after as little as a 12 hour overnight fast (Baillie and Garlick, 1991).


Many of you are asking yourselves how nocturnal feedings will affect fat loss, or even fat gain. If your spider sense was already tingling about this (shit, wrong superhero), then pat yourself on the back, because this is an important point. If done improperly eating in the middle of the night is the fastest way to put on fat or put the brakes on fat loss. BUT, if done properly, eating in the middle of the night can be a great way of actually enhancing fat loss.

[rkl0165]

Originally Posted by jstone28

heres a T-nation Article on noctural feedings.

STOP the Catabolic Insanity!
by David J. Barr
I'm still amazed by the consistency and dedication with which most hardcore guys follow their daily diet, yet allow for a catabolic starvation phase every single night. I mean, most bodybuilders (competitive or not) eat every 2-3 hours for a variety of reasons (which have been hammered into you more often than you can count). Then they go for up to 10 hours without eating anything!
While you may not actually sleep for 10 hours straight, you should realize that even going 6 hours without food puts you into an easily avoidable catabolic situation. The solution is to simply consume one or two nocturnal meals to maintain body energy stores and protein synthesis, or at the very least minimize protein degradation.
UW strength coach Nick Polasek has a great idea that describes the ideal situation for waking up in the night to eat: "You want to have your drink right beside the bed, fall asleep, only to wake up 8 hours later to discover your drink container empty."

We all know that our bodies don't stop requiring nutrients and energy during the night, even though we don't usually provide it with either. This means that our bodies have to draw from it's own sources; in a sense we are fasting. For example, some of our cells may need amino acids throughout the night, and if we don't provide them constantly we must break down our own body proteins to supply them.
Sadly, many people don't consider nocturnal feedings because they only sleep for 6 hours or so. What's scary is that carb breakdown can begin as little as 3 hours after a meal, at least in rats (Palou et al., 1981). While rats have a much higher metabolic rate than humans, our elevated muscle mass greatly increases our own rate

Unfortunately, muscle protein synthesis can fall to as little as one half its level in a fed state, after as little as a 12 hour overnight fast (Baillie and Garlick, 1991).


Many of you are asking yourselves how nocturnal feedings will affect fat loss, or even fat gain. If your spider sense was already tingling about this (shit, wrong superhero), then pat yourself on the back, because this is an important point. If done improperly eating in the middle of the night is the fastest way to put on fat or put the brakes on fat loss. BUT, if done properly, eating in the middle of the night can be a great way of actually enhancing fat loss.

how about go to sleep at 10 p.m. have a shake at 1 a.m. back to sleep then another shake at 4 a.m. then back to sleep wake up at 7 am and have bacon and eggs with toast and orange juice

[Kramer]

Originally Posted by jstone28

heres a T-nation Article on noctural feedings.

STOP the Catabolic Insanity!
by David J. Barr
I'm still amazed by the consistency and dedication with which most hardcore guys follow their daily diet, yet allow for a catabolic starvation phase every single night. I mean, most bodybuilders (competitive or not) eat every 2-3 hours for a variety of reasons (which have been hammered into you more often than you can count). Then they go for up to 10 hours without eating anything!
While you may not actually sleep for 10 hours straight, you should realize that even going 6 hours without food puts you into an easily avoidable catabolic situation. The solution is to simply consume one or two nocturnal meals to maintain body energy stores and protein synthesis, or at the very least minimize protein degradation.
UW strength coach Nick Polasek has a great idea that describes the ideal situation for waking up in the night to eat: "You want to have your drink right beside the bed, fall asleep, only to wake up 8 hours later to discover your drink container empty."

We all know that our bodies don't stop requiring nutrients and energy during the night, even though we don't usually provide it with either. This means that our bodies have to draw from it's own sources; in a sense we are fasting. For example, some of our cells may need amino acids throughout the night, and if we don't provide them constantly we must break down our own body proteins to supply them.
Sadly, many people don't consider nocturnal feedings because they only sleep for 6 hours or so. What's scary is that carb breakdown can begin as little as 3 hours after a meal, at least in rats (Palou et al., 1981). While rats have a much higher metabolic rate than humans, our elevated muscle mass greatly increases our own rate

Unfortunately, muscle protein synthesis can fall to as little as one half its level in a fed state, after as little as a 12 hour overnight fast (Baillie and Garlick, 1991).


Many of you are asking yourselves how nocturnal feedings will affect fat loss, or even fat gain. If your spider sense was already tingling about this (shit, wrong superhero), then pat yourself on the back, because this is an important point. If done improperly eating in the middle of the night is the fastest way to put on fat or put the brakes on fat loss. BUT, if done properly, eating in the middle of the night can be a great way of actually enhancing fat loss.

This just reaffirms how completely clueless T-Nation is but don't worry I'm sure they can find a nice shake for you to solve this problem and it has to be done in the exact way they state....

Yes another example of T-Nation authors that can't interpret the full text of the papers they reference.

Do yourself a favor, stop listening to "T-Nation" because they generally are clueless.

NExt time, read the studies they reference. Case in point:

Responses of protein synthesis in different skeletal muscles to fasting and insulin in rats.

* Baillie AG,
* Garlick PJ.

Rowett Research Institute, Bucksburn, Aberdeen, United Kingdom.

After fasting for 36 h, Ks was significantly reduced in all muscles, although there was still a range apparent between different muscles.


In adult rats. So how does this prove their point in that article above? It doesn't and its complete bullshit.



He uses studies based on 12-36h fasting on rats (which is laughable). He uses studies based on amino acid infusion which again has no bearing since the effects of infused amino acids and oral amino acids is completely different (check the difference in glutamine between oral and infused). He uses studies on nocturnal feedings with rats again which is ridiculous because rat actually DO eat in the middle of the night. That is natural for them so you take those effects away and it will have negative effects. Human brain function and physiology are not that of a rat.

Its typical T-Nation. Take studies, completely twist them around, do not differentiate between infused and oral, associate the increase elevated metabolism of a rat to a human, then try to pass off a conclusion like it means something. Completely and utter horseshit once again. I suggest he read the difference in circadian rhythm, the effects of feeding on these rhythms its subsequent hormonal output, between nocturnal animals and humans.


The whole article is flawed simply by the concept that sleep is a time of catabolic activity when in fact its the opposite. Being awake is more catabolic than sleeping and sleep is a time in which catabolic activity is DECREASED just by hormonal output alone. Its a time where multiple functions of the body, including some muscle action, are reduced. We're not rats in which the circadian rhythm actually triggers us to wake and eat, LIKE a rat. There is a reason why leptin is raised at night...its to suppress appetite.

"It is characterized by a reduction in voluntary body movement, decreased reaction to external stimuli, an increased rate of anabolism (the synthesis of cell structures), and a decreased rate of catabolism (the breakdown of cell structures). "

And that's NORMAL. You don't need extra calories to achieve this process. That's WHY you eat during the day to facilitate this process at night. Add more calories and you can and will get fat.

[jstone28]

there is no empirical evidence that disproves nocturnal feedings. and the vice versa is true also. therefore as a BB'er you can draw your own conclusion.

my question is

How do you know when you have consumed the exact amount of calories needed for muscle growth? how do you know you have done this correctly during the "waking hours"?

How do you know that your body is in a postitive nitrogen balance?

granted nocturnal feedings are unncessary, they may be benifical to those who do not have access to expensive lab equipment.

[rkl0165]

Originally Posted by jstone28

there is no empirical evidence that disproves nocturnal feedings. and the vice versa is true also. therefore as a BB'er you can draw your own conclusion.

my question is

How do you know when you have consumed the exact amount of calories needed for muscle growth? how do you know you have done this correctly during the "waking hours"?

How do you know that your body is in a postitive nitrogen balance?

granted nocturnal feedings are unncessary, they may be benifical to those who do not have access to expensive lab equipment.

nocturnal emissions would be more beneficial than worying about all this..if u wake up hungry..eat something..if u just gotta pee.then pee and go back to sleep..lol

[jstone28]

Taken from T--nation:

In 2005, historian A. Roger Ekirch published a book named At Day's Close: Night in Times Past. In this book, Ekirch reveals what sleep looked like in pre-industrial times. Before there was electricity, before there were gaslights, people typically slept in two bouts they called first sleep and second sleep.

Within an hour or two after sunset, people would go to sleep, only to awaken about four hours later. Did they lie there and worry about taxes and their jobs and curse their circumstances? No, they got up and did household chores or visited with family or friends. They even used this time for sex.

Approximately two hours later, they'd go back to bed for another four hours or so.

Mind you, this was not social convention but innate physiology. It makes perfect sense, too, when you look at the rest of the animal kingdom. Almost all mammals that are active during the day, like chimps, giraffes, and yes by God, chipmunks, sleep in two distinct periods.

And when modern humans are freed from the time constraints imposed by modern life and modern lighting? They revert. Experiments where men are exposed to natural and artificial light for 10 hours a day and then confined to a dark room for 14 hours (similar to a winter's day and night) show that modern humans go back to segmented sleep. Likewise, anthropologists have observed similar segmented sleep patterns in certain modern African tribes.

© 1998 — 2006 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.



if this theory is correct then there is no reason why a shake in the middle of the night would disturb sleeping patterns.

calorically, if you need the shake definatly take it. even if you dont it MAY be benificial to give your body the extra building blocks during its rest.

[Freak]

BOBO is correct in his posts above. As long as you are spreading your protein intake throughout the day, consuming 1g/lb of protein you will have a positive nitrogen balance. Any excess of protein, carbs, or lipids will be converted to adipose tissue. Of course lipids are most easily converted to adipose tissue.

[jstone28]

Originally Posted by thefreak350

BOBO is correct in his posts above. As long as you are spreading your protein intake throughout the day, consuming 1g/lb of protein you will have a positive nitrogen balance. Any excess of protein, carbs, or lipids will be converted to adipose tissue. Of course lipids are most easily converted to adipose tissue.

i am just refering to the notion that sleep cycles are impaired by someone who chooses to preform noturnal feedings.

excess calories turn to fat. as along as you are within your caloric intake for the day. the calories you intake at night will not turn to fat

[Kramer]

Originally Posted by jstone28

there is no empirical evidence that disproves nocturnal feedings. and the vice versa is true also. therefore as a BB'er you can draw your own conclusion.

my question is

How do you know when you have consumed the exact amount of calories needed for muscle growth? how do you know you have done this correctly during the "waking hours"?

How do you know that your body is in a postitive nitrogen balance?

granted nocturnal feedings are unncessary, they may be benifical to those who do not have access to expensive lab equipment.

Yes there is if you actually researched any of this.


You can answer those questions by taking some simple nutrition classes and finding out what maintenance calories are, use the proper equation to determine your bodies metabolism then plan you meal plan accordingly.

Seriously jstone, if you don't the know answers to those questions above then you need to seriously hit the books because those are some of the most basic principle of any nutrition 101 class.

Do yourself a favor and read some basics first before trying to discuss the advanced topics because you clearly show a complete lack of understanding of some very simple equations.

[Kramer]

Originally Posted by jstone28

i am just refering to the notion that sleep cycles are impaired by someone who chooses to preform noturnal feedings.

excess calories turn to fat. as along as you are within your caloric intake for the day. the calories you intake at night will not turn to fat

And you eat those calories DURING THE DAY. If you want to eat in the middle of the night, cut back on the calories during the day but guess what the difference will be in the end...NOTHING.

Jesus...if you want to argue and debate a topic at least know some the easiest and most basic principles of nutrition.

[Kramer]

Does your empirical research go beyond the crap known as T-Nation?

Maybe when you actually put some time into reading the proper literature you can decipher the T-Nation bullshit. Until then, please take some classes because at 18, and asking the questions about how many calories you need, you have clearly shows that you don't have a clue what you are talking about and in no way should be debating anything when it comes to nutrition.

Maybe I can send you some articles and theoretical ideas about the Paleo diet and well but I'm afraid if I do you would eliminate all carbs from your diet based on Paleo diets.

People evolve Jstone. Its called evolution.

Originally Posted by jstone28

Taken from T--nation:

In 2005, historian A. Roger Ekirch published a book named At Day's Close: Night in Times Past. In this book, Ekirch reveals what sleep looked like in pre-industrial times. Before there was electricity, before there were gaslights, people typically slept in two bouts they called first sleep and second sleep.

Within an hour or two after sunset, people would go to sleep, only to awaken about four hours later. Did they lie there and worry about taxes and their jobs and curse their circumstances? No, they got up and did household chores or visited with family or friends. They even used this time for sex.

Approximately two hours later, they'd go back to bed for another four hours or so.

Mind you, this was not social convention but innate physiology. It makes perfect sense, too, when you look at the rest of the animal kingdom. Almost all mammals that are active during the day, like chimps, giraffes, and yes by God, chipmunks, sleep in two distinct periods.

And when modern humans are freed from the time constraints imposed by modern life and modern lighting? They revert. Experiments where men are exposed to natural and artificial light for 10 hours a day and then confined to a dark room for 14 hours (similar to a winter's day and night) show that modern humans go back to segmented sleep. Likewise, anthropologists have observed similar segmented sleep patterns in certain modern African tribes.

© 1998 — 2006 Testosterone, LLC. All Rights Reserved.



if this theory is correct then there is no reason why a shake in the middle of the night would disturb sleeping patterns.

calorically, if you need the shake definatly take it. even if you dont it MAY be benificial to give your body the extra building blocks during its rest.