What is the best you can achieve NATURAL

VCMANZO · 10-09-2009, 02:05 PM

OK, we all have seen models in fitness (NOT BB) magazines with great definition and size (both man and women), also trainers in TV, “normal” people with spectacular profiles at bodybuilding.com and or other fitness forums, even at our local gym there are some few outstanding guys and gals… but…. I recently realized that some guys in my gym might (legal terms jaja) be taking something more than whey and oil fish…

It seems to me that the majority of mentioned people have an extra help… So I have 2 questions:

1) What is the average look (pictures) for a person that follows all the rules during years but do NOT take steroids?

2) What is the best look a natural trainee can achieve?

Thank you.

Best Regards
ME

Cork · 10-09-2009, 02:24 PM

It's impossible to tell because everyone has different genetics. And pushing yourself to the limit will really seperate the gifted from the average. I would look to natural pro bodybuilders to get a good idea of how far one can push the natural limit. You can look at Francisco here, or google Dave Goodin, Layne Norton, Jim Cardova among many other natural athletes.

Also...fitness models aren't always the best example of drug free bodies...

**HawaiianPride.** · 10-09-2009, 02:35 PM

Example of Cordova aka an individual with amazing genetics.

Not everyone can get like this Natural. So like said above it all depends on the individuals genetics and how far they can take you.

**Thomas_Rivera** · 10-09-2009, 02:56 PM

Then there's also what constitutes natural. Natural pro bodybuilders are usually natural within the guidelines of their organization.

VCMANZO · 10-09-2009, 03:05 PM

Lets think of a guy who attends the gym 4 days a week, eats WELL and CLEAN, and supplements with: Whey, creatine, Omegas 3, 6, 9 and glutamine ONLY.

What are the possibilities if you are an average, not a gifted genetics guy? (also not a poor genetics guy).

**HawaiianPride.** · 10-09-2009, 03:09 PM

That's pretty much impossible to calculate accurately. Why don't you try it and find out.

**Thomas_Rivera** · 10-09-2009, 03:09 PM

How muscular you look depends on a few things, how tall you are, how long your bone structure is, how thick it is. You can get in pretty good shape.

**Kaboom** · 10-09-2009, 03:34 PM

dude everybodys "best" is different.

Also have to agree with Thomas

**mikeh40+** · 10-09-2009, 07:35 PM

look around the dungeon and check out the personal profile pics of what our members looks like, honestly if you bust your butt and eat like you should i do believe anyone good genetics or not can change their bodys to either more muscle or in body fat loss, problem is it takes time, for some of us it takes years and years to really see any major growth, i`m not anything out of the ordinary in terms of genetics but what i have put on my 5'8" frame came from 20+ years of training, i raised 2 kids, work a job with no set days off or schedule, and workout in my home gym, so if i can do it , i believe ANYONE can do it!!
what i hate is just because someone puts on muscle its gotta be from steroid enhancement, only you know if the gains came by natural or with gear enhancement, either way your not going to grow anything without paying your dues in the gym.

**Demon Knight** · 10-10-2009, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VCMANZO

Lets think of a guy who attends the gym 4 days a week, eats WELL and CLEAN, and supplements with: Whey, creatine, Omegas 3, 6, 9 and glutamine ONLY.

What are the possibilities if you are an average, not a gifted genetics guy? (also not a poor genetics guy).

An excellent question. Unfortunately, the most important attribute for a natural athlete is your genetic potential. There is no natural bodybuilder out there with poor genetics, at least none that you will have ever heard of. But, the bodybuilding world is a world of exagerration. Truth be told, even a 15'' lean arm (<10%bf) on an average 5'9'' person looks damn good, 16'' and you look darn amazing, 17''+ you're within the world elite. Claims of 18,19 or 20 inch arms for a lean, natural individual are often just downright lies.

You will hear plenty of claims, very few if any true and certified measurements.

This is a good site with realistic goals. Plug in your stats and it'll give you a good idea
The WeighTrainer - Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Weightlifting, Strength Training, Nutrition

P.S. Whilst eating clean and good is healthy, don't think that swapping your 1000kcal of pizza for 1000kcal of brown rice, chicken and broccoli will make much difference as far as muscle gain is concerned. So long as there are adequate resources (protein, carbs and fats), it is relatively immaterial of the source. Hence why even a dirty bulk will put on more muscle than a healthy maintenance in a given amount of time.
As for supplements, 99% are unproven advertising hogwash. There's nothing magical in whey but it is helpful if you're struggling to attain your calories/protein for the day. Creatine is somewhat proven, but nowhere near the power of anabolics. And so on....Beware of what you buy and where the information is coming from.

ultra Tick · 10-11-2009, 04:31 PM

GOOD POST I ALSO BELIEVE THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN MAKE GREAT GAINS NATURALLY
IT ALL DEPENDS ON GENETICS AND DETERMINATION TO GET THERE I ADDED 4 INCHES TO MY ARMS IN TWO YEARS WHILE TRIMMING DOWN FROM 289 TO 200

pixil · 10-11-2009, 11:12 PM

I think Frank Zane was natural.

If so I think hes your target.

**HawaiianPride.** · 10-11-2009, 11:13 PM

Frank was not natural.

pixil · 10-11-2009, 11:15 PM

My bad I thought he was haha.

I never found any evidence my self :(

**HawaiianPride.** · 10-12-2009, 12:59 AM

I don't think any Mr. Olympia winner was natty lol.

animal1918 · 10-12-2009, 07:49 AM

Marc lobliner I think is natural....this guy is a perfect example of what's attainable with hard work and most of all proper diet... by the jim cordova looks sick for some one all natural or not

TylerDurden389 · 10-12-2009, 11:23 AM

Frank definitely wasn't natural just cuz he was so much leaner. It's good to know that 30 years later we have the science that tells us how to get bigger than that naturally.

VCMANZO · 10-12-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon Knight

An excellent question. Unfortunately, the most important attribute for a natural athlete is your genetic potential. There is no natural bodybuilder out there with poor genetics, at least none that you will have ever heard of. But, the bodybuilding world is a world of exagerration. Truth be told, even a 15'' lean arm (<10%bf) on an average 5'9'' person looks damn good, 16'' and you look darn amazing, 17''+ you're within the world elite. Claims of 18,19 or 20 inch arms for a lean, natural individual are often just downright lies.

You will hear plenty of claims, very few if any true and certified measurements.

This is a good site with realistic goals. Plug in your stats and it'll give you a good idea

P.S. Whilst eating clean and good is healthy, don't think that swapping your 1000kcal of pizza for 1000kcal of brown rice, chicken and broccoli will make much difference as far as muscle gain is concerned. So long as there are adequate resources (protein, carbs and fats), it is relatively immaterial of the source. Hence why even a dirty bulk will put on more muscle than a healthy maintenance in a given amount of time.
As for supplements, 99% are unproven advertising hogwash. There's nothing magical in whey but it is helpful if you're struggling to attain your calories/protein for the day. Creatine is somewhat proven, but nowhere near the power of anabolics. And so on....Beware of what you buy and where the information is coming from.

Thank you ALL for your replies and interest in the topic... I take valuable opinions and knowledge from all of you guys.

Specially for Demon Knight... This is the kind of answer I was looking for... Is hard to explain myself in this kind of matters, when is only writing, but thanks again!

I have been at the gym for quite some time now (10 years) and sometimes I stop and step back, to see if my goals are possible as I am determined not to use any "extra help". It is important for me to ask myself the most I can give... but if I ask more than that, I will loose motivation... That is the reason of my question.

Once again thank you all! This is an Excellent forum!

**Demon Knight** · 10-12-2009, 01:22 PM

No probs bud. Being a natural, non-gifted trainee in the iron game for going 5 years, I have a pretty good idea of what kind of gains you can expect if you're like me. It's good to set realistic goals, believe me if you get a 15/16'' lean arm, everyone will be asking what you're on. And that's attainable naturally, just takes plenty of time.

I do recommend you read Brawn and it's sequels by Stuart McRobert. They are quite conservative, but it's advice regarding intensity cycling, how to design workouts around your average (or below average) body etc is invaluable.

VCMANZO · 10-12-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demon Knight

No probs bud. Being a natural, non-gifted trainee in the iron game for going 5 years, I have a pretty good idea of what kind of gains you can expect if you're like me. It's good to set realistic goals, believe me if you get a 15/16'' lean arm, everyone will be asking what you're on. And that's attainable naturally, just takes plenty of time.

I do recommend you read Brawn and it's sequels by Stuart McRobert. They are quite conservative, but it's advice regarding intensity cycling, how to design workouts around your average (or below average) body etc is invaluable.

Thanks again Bro! I will look for Brown... Regards

Braycet · 10-18-2009, 09:59 PM

what seperates the guy in the gym who is pretty big from these pro bodybuilders, if they are both "natural" both been training the same amount of time and both trying to reach the same goal?

**Kaboom** · 10-18-2009, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by animal1918

Marc lobliner I think is natural....this guy is a perfect example of what's attainable with hard work and most of all proper diet... by the jim cordova looks sick for some one all natural or not

Good Guy, good friend but natural lol

HeavyDips51 · 10-18-2009, 10:23 PM

I believe kai greene was a natural until the last few years if im not mistaken

Thouser88 · 10-18-2009, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Braycet

what seperates the guy in the gym who is pretty big from these pro bodybuilders, if they are both "natural" both been training the same amount of time and both trying to reach the same goal?

genetics

Dyingbreed · 10-18-2009, 11:49 PM

natural bodybuilding takes much longer to attain the same goals as opposed to the instance of adding hormonal advantages from steroids. the limits however, are greatly increased by the inclusion of steroids...at least in the correct training and nutrition. that being said, a natural bodybuilder can show a wee bit more pride, albeit delayed in the final showing (IMO) due to his determination and grit rather than just accelerating. i have recently started steroids, just because i don't care about opinions, i just wanna be huge lol.

a natty bodybuilder can get just as lean, just as ripped, just might not be as..large..without the inclusion of possibly amazing genetics, of which there are definately examples of, as previously stated.

ultra Tick · 10-19-2009, 12:34 AM

GETTING HUGE IS EASY FOR ME JUST GETTING REALLY CONDITIONED IS HARD

**Kaboom** · 10-19-2009, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ultra Tick

GETTING HUGE IS EASY FOR ME JUST GETTING REALLY CONDITIONED IS HARD

Maybe its me but.Please stop writing in all capitals,,its annoying

Thouser88 · 10-19-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaboom

Maybe its me but.Please stop writing in all capitals,,its annoying

consign, it's not just you lol

ultra Tick · 10-19-2009, 05:06 PM

forgive me, the military has got me used to using all capitals.
for everything i write
i feel as it has some importance

Dyingbreed · 10-19-2009, 05:10 PM

if all you are worried about is conditioning, look at your macronutients. is your fats too high? carbs? what kind of each are you intaking? cardio is another huge thing. some people can peel off fat by doing 3 hours a week, some take 10.