[B Scott]

Greetings everyone, this is my first post so I'll try to give you all as much background information as possible. I'm pretty much the classic ecto, 5'11", around 150 lbs. I've been training for years but fell victim to many false claims and false information until I really starting taking it seriously about a year ago. I've made some decent gains (more so in strength than in size) but more than anything I'd like my program reviewed by more experienced trainees, especially those more knowledgeable about my body type.

My training is short and simple right now, directed toward getting stronger and building that foundation. It follows this schedule, Monday: Day 1, Wednesday: Day 2, Friday: Day 3, then the following Monday: Day 4, and follows.

Day 1
Front Squat (3 x 5)
Stiff-Legged Deadlift (3 x 8)
Bent-Over Row (3 x 6-8)
Barbell Curl (2 x 8)
Seated Calf-Raise (3 x 12)

Day 2
Flat Bench (or Dumbbell Bench) (3 x 5)
Weighted Dip (3 x 8)
Military Press (3 x 8)
Skull Crushers (2 x 10)
Hanging Knee Raises (3 sets to failure)

Day 3
Deadlift (3 x 5)
Leg Press (3 x 8)
Lat Pull-Down (or pull-ups) (3 x 6-8)
Dumbbell Curl (2 x 8)
Seated Calf-Raise (3 x 12)

Day 4
Incline Dumbbell Press (3 x 6-8)
Weighted Dip (3 x 8)
Military Press (3 x 8)
Cable Press-Down (2 x 10)
Decline Crunch (3 sets to failure)

My meal plan is where most of my concern lies. Believe me, I've tried hundreds of different variations and this is what seems to be the most practical for me, but of course I'm open for suggestions, that's why I'm here.

Breakfast 9:00
2 whole eggs, cup of oats, fruit, 2 cups of juice
(I can barely stomach anything in the morning so that's about all I can shovel down.)

Lunch (Pre-workout on training days) 12:00
Chicken breast, baked potato, banana

Afternoon Shake (or Post-workout) 1:30
Milk w/ 2 tbsp natural peanut butter, 1 scoop of whey, 10g creatine mono

Afternoon Meal 3:00
Chicken breast, a couple slices of whole grain bread, more fruit

Dinner 6:00
1/4 lb beef burger w/ whole grain bun, 6 oz yogurt, vegetables

Evening Meal 9:00
Same as 6:00 except almonds in place of the yogurt

Nighttime Shake 11:00
Same as the earlier one minus the creatine (I would prefer casein to whey but I lack the funds to buy both right now.)

It equals out to about 3,800 calories. It's been a while since I tracked the macros but I know I was getting in around 240g of protein. I also take branched aminos pre and post-workout, fish oil, and a good multi, and I try to get in around a gallon of water each day.

I know the common advice would be to keep bumping up the calorie intake until I start to gain, which I'm in the process of already. I just also know that there are more experienced people out there that could have some helpful tips I would have never thought of. This is the first time I've posted my diet and training info so I'm up for a good review.

[Mr Moley]

For pre work out try and get 5g creatine mono and then post you only need 5g also. bannana and white bread with protein shake after your workout. i take amino acids pre and post workout too. but you can take them in the morning and post workout aswell. Try and get some cottage cheese before bed also.

As for your training: i think a split may work better? seperte your bodyparts up over those 4? days and work hard on each one each time and you will have adequate recovery before your next session.

Sorry im not much help. Just thought id underline some basics for you.

[B Scott]

Those are some good tips. White bread for the simple carbs post-workout is always a good idea but I use brown bread for everything else so I kind of just stopped buying both.

As for the training, I tried conventional split routines for ages and failed miserably. As an ecto, I have a very frail CNS and poor recovery ability. The only way I can make strength gains is to train more like a powerlifter (although not a very powerful one, haha) and to keep the work capacity pretty low.

[Mr Moley]

Fair enough on the second paragraph. Each to there own. Just buy half a loaf of white every time you get a brown. you only need 1 or 2 slices after a workout and your only working out a few times a week so you wont be needing much. There only like 80p

What else would you like help with?

[B Scott]

That's a good idea. I'll probably do that.

I suppose my biggest issue is just stuffing all the food down. I've always had an appetite fit for a bird and I'd like to get some tips on how to make it easier. A lot of my calories come from those two shakes (about 600 in each) and I'm always trying to increase the amount of solid food I'm shoving down the hatch.

[Mr Moley]

Have 2 more scoops of peanut butter before bed i think + cottage cheese. This will help boost your calories alot and get some good fats and slow digesting proteins in before bed.

Are you taking a multi vitamin? They are pretty essential.

If you don't feel your getting enough calories......keeeeep eating more. When you think your full...just have a tad more at each meal. It will all add up and help you to pile on the mass!

[Mighty6453]

I personaly think you need to back off the training a little I would mix Back and legs in same work out I think a 4 day split would be better
Day 1 Chest & Tris
Day 2 Back
Day 3 off
Day 4 Shoulders & Bis
Day 5 Legs
Day 6 Rest
Day 7 Rest or repeat cycle my workout partners & I had some great results on a program like this
I think your excerise choice is good also you need to eat more 2 eggs for breakfast is only 14 or 16 grams of protien after not eating for 8-10 hours

[B Scott]

I think maybe I was misunderstood in my first post regarding the training. I explain it in there but just briefly. Day 1 is Monday, Day 2 is Wednesday, Day 3 is Friday, and Day 4 would be the following Monday, then repeat with Day 1 on Wednesday. So I'm actually only training three days a week.

I do combine back and legs in my workouts. Like I said though, I'm done with the split-style training until I build a good strength foundation. I'm not trying to sound stubborn or arrogant in that statement, it's just that I've tried all those routines out there and I've discovered what works best for my body.

Adding a little more peanut butter is definitely a good idea. I think the reason I kept it at that much a day is because my previous diet was far too high in fat, even for a starving ecto like myself. I suppose I can add a little more in though now that I've altered that a bit.

And yes to the multi question. I've been taking AST's Multi-Pro 32X for the past year or so but just recently switch to Now ADAM Superiors.

[sshorty]

post workout i have 5g mono, 2 serves of xtend bcaa (aprox 18g bcaa) 50 grams dextrose. adds good size and vascularity. could give that a try if your post isnt up to scatch

[B Scott]

I've thought about using Xtend in the past but I just don't have the budget for it right now. Sad I know, because it's really not too expensive, but that's just how broke this brother is!

I should also add that I've started doing some moderate intensity cardio (light jogging) three evenings a week. Before anyone tells me that in my situation, cardio is my mortal enemy, please note that for the past year and a half I've avoided virtually all cardio in any form. In my case, I feel it's important to progress my cardio health and aerobic capacity right now. I feel given the circumstances, it will only be beneficial.

[islander]

Ive never heard anyone blame body type for 'frail' cns and poor recovery times. My bro is pure ecto and his cns adapts amazing and his recovery time is freakin instant and he trains like crazy. Those are the two most things im jealous of of him. How did you come to think this? Do you train to failure alot? Because this would lengthen recovery time and be hard on your cns.

[B Scott]

I've done my homework, believe me. I've gotten advice from very reputable sources including strength coaches. I'm by no means saying that all ectos will have poor recovery time and an inability to support a strong workload and high volume training, but I have been led to believe that it's a common trait and in my situation, it's been proven to be the truth. I used to train to failure quite often, but anymore, I always keep at least one rep in me.

I used to overtrain myself into the ground unknowingly and I never made weekly strength gains, hell, barely even monthly. I do know others that you'd think would fall into the same category but are blessed with great recovery abilities, and by the same token, I know others that can hardly train consistently for more than a couple weeks without getting sick. I'm not trying to disprove your point, I'm just stating my reasons for making that conclusion.

[islander]

ahh. I was just wondering what your sources were to back that up. no prob tho. I wonder if all the over training had some longer lasting neg effects like you poor recouvry times now..hmm. Mabey a fast twitch slow twicth thing going on. Zir on this board might have some better ideas, Im just learning as I go.

[Mighty6453]

I find it funny that you come on this board to ask for help from us with your situation then when we give you suggestions you claim that you have tried all of that and evan spoken to strength coaches if you know so much why ask us simple people for help

[B Scott]

That's definitely a possibility as well! I got so stuck in the way I was training for a long period of time and I know I constantly drained and exhausted myself.

At the time, I was unable to tell the signs but it's also my belief that the body takes some time to recover and return to it's balanced state after any source of trauma, even something as minor as muscle fiber damage (although over time, on a consistent basis it's probably not as minor as most of us would assume).

I'm hoping time will give me more of the answers I'm looking for, but until then, I'm all ears for what you guys have to say. And I want to thank you all for the replies I've gotten so far!

[B Scott]

Originally Posted by Mighty6453

I find it funny that you come on this board to ask for help from us with your situation then when we give you suggestions you claim that you have tried all of that and evan spoken to strength coaches if you know so much why ask us simple people for help

I'm not claiming to know any more than anyone else on here, and I'm sure there's a LOT of people on this board that are much more knowledgeable than I, that being the reason I'm asking for suggestions. I'm not trying to shoot down everything that anyone suggests, I'm just giving my honest and direct opinion on the matter. The truth is, I have tried a lot and I'm finally getting fairly tuned in to what my body responds to, especially with my training protocol. But there's always those that can give you the "Wow, I can't believe I never thought of that!" advice and really help me along the way. That's what I'm here for, to live and learn.

[Mighty6453]

Time and heavy weight and intense workout are the answers, their is no magic pill or formula. I have taken guy with simalar problems as you are having, started training with them pushing them making them stronger and having go from 6'3" 204 lbs to 230 lbs in 2 mos you need to do forced reps on basic movements and then recover and you can't worry about not being able to see your ABS while trying to gain bulk that doesn't mean turn into a fat cow either but putting on a little fat is ok I mean seriously their are fitness woman that weigh more that you

[Mighty6453]

and being that you live Ohio go train at WestSide Barbell and Louie Simmions they are in London Ohio look'em up on the web

[B Scott]

Thanks for the tips guys. I know you've got a great point there. Just plain consistency has probably been my biggest problem. Not in the sense that I train sporadically and then start and stop. I'm always training but in the past I've changed my programs so frequently that I was never able to truly get a grasp on whether or not I was responding well to what I was doing. Just recently though I've started to get a better idea.

Also, it's funny you mention Westside. I was just checking them out and watching some videos yesterday. Talk about beasts.

[Mighty6453]

Yes WestSide have some beast that is for certain and Louie is fantastic I went to one of his seminars in Febuary he is diffently not the same old same old. I think that anyone who has the chance to visit West Side Barbell or meet Louie Simmions should do it. It does not matter weather you are a body builder power lifter football player MMA everyone will see results

[lilnickyp]

Hey Scott
Your storey and your training style is similar to mine.
I usually train back/legs then “push” than legs
I’d strongly recommend trying out some olympic lifts
For back/legs I’d recommend
-squat cleans
-snatch
-single arm db snatch

Day 2/4/”push”(I know muscled don’t push they contract)
-power clean and press
-split leg jerk

Plz note this is not a program, only recommended exercises to incorporate into your training. It takes some time to lean these lifts but I can say that I have definitely benefited from them.
-Train hard

[Demon Knight]

Originally Posted by B Scott

Greetings everyone, this is my first post so I'll try to give you all as much background information as possible. I'm pretty much the classic ecto, 5'11", around 150 lbs. I've been training for years but fell victim to many false claims and false information until I really starting taking it seriously about a year ago. I've made some decent gains (more so in strength than in size) but more than anything I'd like my program reviewed by more experienced trainees, especially those more knowledgeable about my body type.

My training is short and simple right now, directed toward getting stronger and building that foundation. It follows this schedule, Monday: Day 1, Wednesday: Day 2, Friday: Day 3, then the following Monday: Day 4, and follows.

Day 1
Front Squat (3 x 5)
Stiff-Legged Deadlift (3 x 8)
Bent-Over Row (3 x 6-8)
Barbell Curl (2 x 8)
Seated Calf-Raise (3 x 12)

Day 2
Flat Bench (or Dumbbell Bench) (3 x 5)
Weighted Dip (3 x 8)
Military Press (3 x 8)
Skull Crushers (2 x 10)
Hanging Knee Raises (3 sets to failure)

Day 3
Deadlift (3 x 5)
Leg Press (3 x 8)
Lat Pull-Down (or pull-ups) (3 x 6-8)
Dumbbell Curl (2 x 8)
Seated Calf-Raise (3 x 12)

Day 4
Incline Dumbbell Press (3 x 6-8)
Weighted Dip (3 x 8)
Military Press (3 x 8)
Cable Press-Down (2 x 10)
Decline Crunch (3 sets to failure)

My meal plan is where most of my concern lies. Believe me, I've tried hundreds of different variations and this is what seems to be the most practical for me, but of course I'm open for suggestions, that's why I'm here.

Breakfast 9:00
2 whole eggs, cup of oats, fruit, 2 cups of juice
(I can barely stomach anything in the morning so that's about all I can shovel down.)

Lunch (Pre-workout on training days) 12:00
Chicken breast, baked potato, banana

Afternoon Shake (or Post-workout) 1:30
Milk w/ 2 tbsp natural peanut butter, 1 scoop of whey, 10g creatine mono

Afternoon Meal 3:00
Chicken breast, a couple slices of whole grain bread, more fruit

Dinner 6:00
1/4 lb beef burger w/ whole grain bun, 6 oz yogurt, vegetables

Evening Meal 9:00
Same as 6:00 except almonds in place of the yogurt

Nighttime Shake 11:00
Same as the earlier one minus the creatine (I would prefer casein to whey but I lack the funds to buy both right now.)

It equals out to about 3,800 calories. It's been a while since I tracked the macros but I know I was getting in around 240g of protein. I also take branched aminos pre and post-workout, fish oil, and a good multi, and I try to get in around a gallon of water each day.

I know the common advice would be to keep bumping up the calorie intake until I start to gain, which I'm in the process of already. I just also know that there are more experienced people out there that could have some helpful tips I would have never thought of. This is the first time I've posted my diet and training info so I'm up for a good review.

Welcome to the board bud!

From a natural ectomorph's point of view, it's far too much volume. Whilst it might have worked for your first year of "serious" training, you're not going to grow for very long. Instead of writing down a routine you should or anything like that, I suggest you read a couple of good books like Brawn from Stuart McRobert. Remember, progress is king. Regardless of the training variables/nutrition/rest, if you are still lifting the same weights you did a year ago, you are not getting any bigger or stronger. Period.

As far as nutrition goes, there's nothing "wrong" with the diet, a few more veggies wouldn't hurt and 240g of protein is overkill for a man your size. At 150lbs, somewhere between 96g-123g of protein is enough (or you can go with 1g/lb so 150g, which is a bit high but easy to calculate) . More protein does not equal more muscle. No scientific study has ever proven over 1.8g/kg of protein to offer any additional muscle building benefit. Swap some of the protein for more carbohydrates.

As you said, keep monitoring yourself and adjust the calorie intake as you see fit for your current goals.

Best of luck and remember, have patience and think long term. You won't be able to increase the weight every week but if you increase the weight you can lift by a "measly" 5lbs every couple of months, that's 30lbs in a year which is very solid progress. In 5 years time, you will be 150lbs over what you started. This will add some serious muscle to those bones

[B Scott]

Thanks a ton Demon! I've heard that book recommended many times before too so maybe I should give it a look. I bought Berardi's "Scrawny to Brawny" months back, and I picked up a lot of good information but most of the training procedures were much higher volume and I knew I wasn't responding well to that. (Believe it or not, I've cut WAY down on the volume since then!)

I'll try to cut back a little on the protein as well. Great tips. Much appreciated!

[Demon Knight]

Originally Posted by B Scott

Thanks a ton Demon! I've heard that book recommended many times before too so maybe I should give it a look. I bought Berardi's "Scrawny to Brawny" months back, and I picked up a lot of good information but most of the training procedures were much higher volume and I knew I wasn't responding well to that. (Believe it or not, I've cut WAY down on the volume since then!)

I'll try to cut back a little on the protein as well. Great tips. Much appreciated!

No worries mate

Whilst I have every respect for John Berardi, there's no denying he was blessed with a good bone/muscle structure for bodybuilding. The punishment his body can take is far greater than mine. Stuart is much more conservative (perhaps a tad too conservative) but his advice will work for everyone, not just the genetically blessed/drug using individuals.

Take a look at this article for some good, honest advice:

The WeighTrainer - The Rules of Productive Weight Training for The Drug-Free Trainee

[B Scott]

GREAT article! I read it top to bottom.

[B Scott]

Well I just ordered "Brawn." I heard that the nutrition information in it is useless though. I certainly hope not because that's the main reason I bought it. What's everyone else' view that's read it?

[Demon Knight]

Originally Posted by B Scott

Well I just ordered "Brawn." I heard that the nutrition information in it is useless though. I certainly hope not because that's the main reason I bought it. What's everyone else' view that's read it?

You've heard correctly. The nutrition section is extremely basic, as Stuart like most ectomorphs just needs to eat a hell of a lot due to their structure not storing much if any bodyfat.

In his defence, nutrition is overestimated from most sources. You won't turn into a Rob Hope or a Dave Goodin by following a super strict clean diet if you don't have the genetic potential. It does offer many health benefits and when you're cutting it's almost essential, but don't expect a super performance boost if you swap that pizza for broccoli, chicken and wholegrain rice.

If you're quite interested in nutrition, Anita Bean Complete Guide to Sport Nutrition is a very good book from what I hear. You can also try more bodybuilding orientated ones, but beware who the publisher/writer is. There is a very high chance they are a company or affiliated to a company which produces supplements and will therefore the book will be biased to try and sell you some stock.

[B Scott]

Thanks for the insight! I'm sure I'll still be able to pick up some good information though considering how often I've seen that book recommended. I think at this point, more than anything I'm aiming to learn about my body type and gain some insight into my specific needs. I know nothing will do more of that than experimenting and seeing what works myself but I still want to be well-rounded and knowledgeable on all bases.

And the other part you mentioned is a lot of the problem. It's hard for me to find any decent information without having an ad thrown at me, and in that case it's obviously not unbiased, straight forward advice, it's just an ad. I ordered that book in hopes to get some no nonsense tips.

[Demon Knight]

Originally Posted by B Scott

Thanks for the insight! I'm sure I'll still be able to pick up some good information though considering how often I've seen that book recommended. I think at this point, more than anything I'm aiming to learn about my body type and gain some insight into my specific needs. I know nothing will do more of that than experimenting and seeing what works myself but I still want to be well-rounded and knowledgeable on all bases.

And the other part you mentioned is a lot of the problem. It's hard for me to find any decent information without having an ad thrown at me, and in that case it's obviously not unbiased, straight forward advice, it's just an ad. I ordered that book in hopes to get some no nonsense tips.

Stuart McRobert is as no nonsense as it gets. His books along with a handful of others (all are included in that article link I posted at weightrainer) are all you need for training purposes. As for nutrition, watch out for general bodybuilding magazines/articles. They have very little if any scientific merit to them. Stick to real scientifically proven nutrition, not "Jay Cutler's guide to eating for size".

That weighttrainer article sums up natural bodybuilding for the average joe pretty nicely. Read it, print it and keep it. Whenever you feel downtrodden and tired with your slow progress compared to Joe "I gained 20lbs of muscle in a month" Bloggs, read it and get another dose of reality. Same goes for Brawn.

The only two things I would stress are to pay attention to the progress, not the effort, and have patience. It takes many years to build those mounds of muscle and enjoy life, make it a passion, not an obsession.

[B Scott]

Thanks a lot! You've really been a tremendous help. The article you linked to me is probably the best thing I've read in over a year (and probably read close to a thousand other articles within that time). I'm just trying to keep my plan strict and simple and stick to it. Hopefully I'll see some changes.