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plz help me with my back
Old 01-21-2008, 10:00 PM   #1
Jez
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Hello, Im new to this forum, but I've been checking it out for a while.
I feel like I am developing quite well with my goals to bulk up, Ive made lots of good gains in the muscle department, and have a reasonable diet these days.
However I am stumped because I cant seem to develop my lats, or my back in general. I have included a pic, Im fairly happy with it, but there is not width what so ever.
My back workout includes chins, dlift, bentover db rows, seated row and wide grip pull downs. Sometimes I throw in variations on the exercises like different handles, or bbells ect. It is just lagging on me still. Any advice you can give me for by back would be put to use immediately!
I do a back/bicep split
chest/triceps
legs
shoulders/traps
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Old 01-21-2008, 11:40 PM   #2
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If you wanna widen your back then substitute your chins for wide grip pullups. Close grip chins will build thickness in your back but wide grip works your outer lats.
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Old 01-22-2008, 01:16 AM   #3
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^true but when you do that throw away the wide grip pull downs
Also try bent over barbell rows wide grip or shoulder width with palms outward
 
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Old 01-22-2008, 03:47 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaboom View Post
^true but when you do that throw away the wide grip pull downs
Also try bent over barbell rows wide grip or shoulder width with palms outward
wide grip barbell rows?? i havent tried them before haha thanks kaboom i know this is jez's thread but im looking to increase the width in the back department
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cheers
Old 01-22-2008, 09:23 AM   #5
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excellent, I'm off to the gym to try it!
Thankyou
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:33 AM   #6
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I got the same problem with my lats too. Ill try the wide grip approach too.
 
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jez View Post
Hello, Im new to this forum, but I've been checking it out for a while.
I feel like I am developing quite well with my goals to bulk up, Ive made lots of good gains in the muscle department, and have a reasonable diet these days.
However I am stumped because I cant seem to develop my lats, or my back in general. I have included a pic, Im fairly happy with it, but there is not width what so ever.
My back workout includes chins, dlift, bentover db rows, seated row and wide grip pull downs. Sometimes I throw in variations on the exercises like different handles, or bbells ect. It is just lagging on me still. Any advice you can give me for by back would be put to use immediately!
I do a back/bicep split
chest/triceps
legs
shoulders/traps

This is part of an article writen by my favorite coach.....I hope this helps:

He said: Proper exercise selection depends on your body structure (limb lengths, shoulder and hips width) as well as your muscle dominance. For example, the bench press or incline DB press are great movements to build the chest in individuals who are either "chest-dominant" (chest proportionally stronger than shoulders and triceps) or who have a balanced development in all the pressing muscles. However, if someone is "shoulder-dominant," these might not be the best choices.

See, it's not as simple as saying that compound movements are superior to isolation exercises. In many cases it's true, however in other case the proper isolation drill might be superior to compound movements.

While complete exercise selection depending on your body type and muscle dominance is outside the scope of this article and will be a series of its own, I like to use the following 'basic' guidelines :

• For a dominant muscle (a muscle that responds well to training) I suggest using only 'big movements': the exercises in which you can use the most weight for the target muscle group.

• For an 'average muscle' (a muscle that's neither a super easy responder nor a stubborn one) I recommend two 'big movements' followed by an isolation exercise.

• For a 'stubborn muscle' I suggest using a pre-fatigue approach: starting with an isolation exercise and then performing either one 'big movement' plus one more isolation one, or two 'big movements'. The key is to start with the isolation one.

Pre-fatigue is a technique that I recommend only for a stubborn muscle group. This technique is effective because by isolating a muscle you 'prime it' (both neurologically and physiologically) so that it's recruited more easily during the subsequent 'big movement'. The localized pump from the isolation movement also enables you to better 'feel' that muscle working during the compound drill (enhanced feedback) and are thus able to have a better mind-muscle connection with that stubborn muscle.

Here are some examples of possible exercise selections. Note that this is not an exhaustive list. You have my permission to choose other exercises.

Back exercise selection

If you're latissimus-dominant or balanced:

A. Chest-supported T-bar rowing
B. Supinated chin-ups
C. Rope lat pulldown
D. Seated rope row to the neck

If you're biceps/forearms-dominant:

A. Machine pullover or straight-arm pulldown
B. Rope lat pulldown
C. Bent over lateral raise
D. Seated rope row to the neck


my 2 cents
 
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Old 01-22-2008, 06:33 PM   #8
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I'm unfamiliar with some of the exercises you have, but I'll learn them today
(I have got an appointment with my gym trainer).
I am definately in the category of forearm/bicep dominant.
That was very interesting, and thanks!
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Old 01-22-2008, 07:14 PM   #9
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Just remember that you have to go wide to get wide
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:53 PM   #10
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I went to gym and got the lowdown on those exercises. I also got a bf% reading done with the calipers (3point), it came out at 11.5% (down from 19%) ohh yeah!
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Old 01-22-2008, 10:11 PM   #11
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I use to have trouble developing and "feeling" my back due to reading bodybuilding magazines. In the magazines they tell you to use "super-strict" form (they have to be politically correct so the masses don't get hurt or do something crazy), and don't do this and don't do that, blah blah blah. Oh and then there's the, "make sure you lift the bar up in 2 secs and lower it in 4 secs", feel the muscle pump, burn, squeeze, contract, etc etc.

Ok, I use to have trouble with all of the above. It was the way I was interpertating it. Back then there was much video to watch to see how the pro's really trained. I tried for years to train like this and got no results. I was way to stiff in my execution.

When I finally got to see how pro's trained I was very critical of their form. I use to actually think that a lot of pro's didn't make it better in the sport because of their form.

Well the more and more video's I purchased the more I noticed Pro's don't train the way the mags say to. Then on the internet it seems like everyone is so against the way the pro's train. Its because people don't know any better. They only know what they've been taught and it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Especially this old dog.

Well sick and fed up of not getting any results I started to train like Cutler, Coleman, Ruhl, Gastovo, and almost every other pro that everyone knocks and says they use terrible form. Well the truth is, the obviously aren't.

This is what helped me get my back to grow and do better.

1.) Hand/Arm/Elbow Repositioning:
In the magazines I used to read how your suppose to bring your arms down for width, and straight back for rows. Back then, like I said, my only source was magazines. So when I would look at the pictures, I would see the arm positioning only in the top and bottom parts of the exercises. This is going to be very hard to describe on the net, so I'll do the best I can.

I Use to try and bring my arms down on pulldowns into L shapes straight out to the sides in line with my shoulders. I know, I was stupid. I use to look at people doing close grip chins and couldn't figure out for the life of me how this was training their lats when the arm positioning was so different. Close-grip/underhand, the arms are out in front and the elbows are brought in towards the body and down. The arms are moved in an arc towards your body. This is what I was suppose to be doing with the wide grip pulldowns. Instead I was bring the arms straight down in line with my shoulders instead of moving them down in an arc. I wasn't letting my shoulders naturally rotate like the should at the joint. To sum it up, I now think of the Pulldown/Chin/or any pulldown movement for that matter as a High Row. I perform the movement just like you would a row, but instead of pulling from out in front of my body, I am pulling from above. So try to think in terms of "rowing" your pulldowns.

Wide grip overhead pulldowns (the most popular), I grab the bar where the bar curves. I sit straight up on the stretch and let the heavy weight pull my lats out, 90 degree angle. Then I rock back to a 120 degree angle and "row" the bar down as fast and hard as possible to my chest area. I say chest area, because I pull to where the bar goes the most natural for me. Some people say to pull to the chest, the chin, right above the chin. I don't agree with this because everyone is different and has shorter/longer arms compared to their body ratio. Your body will let you know where to pull the bar and where to stop. My arm length doesn't allow me to go all the way to my chest, so i'm a few inches above it. You'll know. Don't force yourself to move it insite of contraction. Trust me, your lats are contracting or else you wouldn't have gotten down the first few inches. Then control the bar back up. If you use the right rythm and form, your muscles are naturally going to start feeling it.

But my favorite is the underhand grip lat pulldown. The one Dorian Yates and Jay Cutler so commonly use. That hits the Belly of the front lats. Gives your lats that "popping" out look from the front. Of course your not going to only be able to feel the lat in that area alone, your going to have to feel the whole back, but it does give emphasis to that area. This exercise is easy to get into that "row" that I like to imagine while performing them. You have to lean back on these. No way can you sit straight up and perform these properly. If you do you rish hurting your lower back, straining your shoulders, and not gaining much muscle because you won't be able to pull the amount of weight that your lats can handle. But of course the mags say not to lean back, yet every single pro does. The only people i don't see leaning back is old men and olderwomen who use the first 2 or 3 plates on the pulldown stack. The sit straight up and pulldown slow. You know who Im talking about.

2). I use to try and feel and target only certain parts of the lats for certain exercises. What I discovered, by accident,was that I should be trying to feel the whole back, I got much better results when I did this. I use to look at pictures of Dorian Yates and only try to feel that area of the front lats like you would see in Dorians front double biceps pictures. Once I figured out how to feel the whole back. Things were much better.

3). Rows. Barbell rows have always been my favorite mass builder, along with T-bar rows in the corner. When I read how to perform these I was told to not let your upper body move. So for years I would bend over at 75 degrees and only let my upper arms hang down to their most extended position and then pull the bar up to my lower waist. This is wrong. After watching Cutler and Coleman perform these I tried it their style. Then when I saw Gustavo, Shawn Ray, and many others performing these like this, I then knew I was doing it wrong. Hell even Arnold does them right in Pumping Iron.

Instead of bending your knees and keeping your body still, and only moving your arms, you need to let your back bend as well. This is what they do and this is what I do now. I am much more loose with my rows and I have since gotten better results. I'm not talking about sloppily letting your back round. I'm talking about keeping your back straight at all times and when your lower the bar with your arms, instead of stopping there, also bend your your lower back to and extent to get that extra stretch. In the transition, quickly straighten your torso and lift it back up whilst ramming the bar into your abdomen.

This may not be the best description of what im trying to explain, but trust me it works. You know how you bend at the hips to lower the weight forwards on cable rows? Ok, barbell rows should be treated no different. Same applies to all rows. I bend my knees to take any additional stress off my lower back as I lower the bar and feel my whole back stretch out. Before I never felt that stretch. The next day after trying it like this my back was so sore it was awesome. I'm talkin about from armpit to hip insertion. It was the best feeling I had in years. It was painful to. While siting at the dinner table eating my daughter hit me in the belly of my lat and pain shot through like no other. Same way your pecs do after a hard workout and someone pokes you in the pecs. Pecs are easy to get sore, but now I can get my lats sore like that. I can also control them much better. It's amazing how much a simple change in technique can cause such a world of difference.

For all the people that say Cutler has bad form, that is bull. Least for me it is. I know everyone is different, but after watching Cutler train and switching my form to somewhat match his, I am had a world of difference in developing my muscles.

I hope what I wrote might can help you. You may already be doing this. But I know it helped me and it might help others as well. If anything I wrote sounds crazy, it because Its much harder to tell you how to do this on the net. If I was in person I could explain it and show it to you easily. Also if I left words out or mispelled anything, its because i'm typing from my laptop and Im not used to holding my hands in this position like a regular keyboard. Also some of my keys take some extra strength to push them in and I'm typing so fast its possible i missed a few things. So that would be the reason for a lot of mistakes.

Take care guys
 
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