[mustan9]

Well, there is nothing natural about bodybuilding. It's not part of our human nature to be able to bench press 300lbs or squat 500lbs, or walk around with huge muscles. If it was we'd all look like Arnold without any effort. So it's kind of a strange thing to say some people are "natural bodybuilders".

Products like creatine aren't natural because if you stop taking it the body will return to it's natural state, and you will loose the advantage that creatine gave you.

Protein shakes are made from natural foods, but it is a processed food. Some people don't think processed foods are natural.

Natural to me is anything that doesn't interfere with the body's natural function or development.

Now here's the problem. Since bodybuilding is not a natural thing allowances must be made to allow people to reach gains that measure in the unnatural range. So products like protein shakes, creatine and others are allowed to increase the body's performance levels for functions that occur naturally. What we don't want to see is damage occuring. We also don't want to see people trying to change a body function to something it wasn't designed to do.

[firecrakjack]

Originally Posted by mustan9

Products like creatine aren't natural because if you stop taking it the body will return to it's natural state, and you will loose the advantage that creatine gave you.

Protein shakes are made from natural foods, but it is a processed food. Some people don't think processed foods are natural.

isn't creatine found in red meat?

[mustan9]

Originally Posted by firecrakjack

isn't creatine found in red meat?

Yea I think it does. I'm not completely sure.

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by mustan9

Well, there is nothing natural about bodybuilding. It's not part of our human nature to be able to bench press 300lbs or squat 500lbs, or walk around with huge muscles. If it was we'd all look like Arnold without any effort. So it's kind of a strange thing to say some people are "natural bodybuilders".

Products like creatine aren't natural because if you stop taking it the body will return to it's natural state, and you will loose the advantage that creatine gave you.

Protein shakes are made from natural foods, but it is a processed food. Some people don't think processed foods are natural.

Natural to me is anything that doesn't interfere with the body's natural function or development.

Now here's the problem. Since bodybuilding is not a natural thing allowances must be made to allow people to reach gains that measure in the unnatural range. So products like protein shakes, creatine and others are allowed to increase the body's performance levels for functions that occur naturally. What we don't want to see is damage occuring. We also don't want to see people trying to change a body function to something it wasn't designed to do.

that makes no sense. if you stop weightlifting you return to your natural state.

so anyone who lifts weights isn't natural? hehe

[mustan9]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

that makes no sense. if you stop weightlifting you return to your natural state.

so anyone who lifts weights isn't natural? hehe

I don't mean that the person is unnatural because they lift weights. Nore do I mean that the activity of lifting weights is unnatural.

I'm just saying that the body state bodybuilders put themself into in order to gain lean muscle, drop body fat, and change the way they look in the mirror. That part isn't something that happens on it's own. You can't go to the beach and see people with the body's of professional bodybuilders who have never lifted weights.

Most men's natural body fat levels are around 12% to 15% (depending on age), but bodybuilders usually want much lower levels. So if they stop their training, then they tent to return to their natural fat levels.

Same for muscle mass, strength, and other things like that.

So am I wrong to say that if you stop weight lifting you return to your natural state?

[kenney]

yes you're wrong lol just because they 'alter' their natural state, doesn't mean they are not natural.natties still use natural substances to get to where they are.therefore, NATURALLY altering their body.

[mustan9]

Originally Posted by kenney666

yes you're wrong lol just because they 'alter' their natural state, doesn't mean they are not natural.natties still use natural substances to get to where they are.therefore, NATURALLY altering their body.

You win.

When you put it as the altered state still being natural, then I do agree with that.

[kenney]

Originally Posted by mustan9

You win.

When you put it as the altered state still being natural, then I do agree with that.

i like being right lol i did understand the point you were making though

[JayWesson1]

For me being natural is staying clean of compounds put on WADA's banned list. I know that there are some loop holes and what not but that is where I personally draw the line between the two. At this point I have never used any gear but the thought has crossed my mind. I do not plan on competeing my training is for my own personal benefit.

[pa_dude]

A good base line for defining natural bodybuilding would be one that consumes food that is grown. No nutritional supplements. Although, one could argue that cocaine and heroin (etc...) are grown naturally. These items could be considered herbal supplements. So we would have to define herbal supplements that perhaps are not chemically addictive to human beings. Then one could argue that caffeine is an addictive herbal supplement or any herb that elevates heart rate or blood pressure to a possible unsafe level. We could go a step further and say that any supplement that could an addiction or cause irreparable damage to internal or external organs should not be consumed by natural bodybuilders.

Would this be a fair base line for defining natural bodybuilding?

[pa_dude]

Originally Posted by mustan9

I don't mean that the person is unnatural because they lift weights. Nore do I mean that the activity of lifting weights is unnatural.

I'm just saying that the body state bodybuilders put themself into in order to gain lean muscle, drop body fat, and change the way they look in the mirror. That part isn't something that happens on it's own. You can't go to the beach and see people with the body's of professional bodybuilders who have never lifted weights.

Most men's natural body fat levels are around 12% to 15% (depending on age), but bodybuilders usually want much lower levels. So if they stop their training, then they tent to return to their natural fat levels.

Same for muscle mass, strength, and other things like that.

So am I wrong to say that if you stop weight lifting you return to your natural state?

Then people who work blue collar jobs that are physically demanding would be in an unnatural state of physical conditioning?

[pa_dude]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

that makes no sense. if you stop weightlifting you return to your natural state.

so anyone who lifts weights isn't natural? hehe

The state people who use automobiles and airplanes (etc...) would put themselves in an unnatural state of conditioning?

[musclefreq]

anything that is extracted from something natural ie whey from milk, tribulus terrestris from herbs etc

[pa_dude]

So, anything extracted from nature is considered natural? That means any substance (i.e. mind/mood altering substances) are considered natural?

[AlteredBeast]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A good base line for defining natural bodybuilding would be one that consumes food that is grown. No nutritional supplements. Although, one could argue that cocaine and heroin (etc...) are grown naturally. These items could be considered herbal supplements. So we would have to define herbal supplements that perhaps are not chemically addictive to human beings. Then one could argue that caffeine is an addictive herbal supplement or any herb that elevates heart rate or blood pressure to a possible unsafe level. We could go a step further and say that any supplement that could an addiction or cause irreparable damage to internal or external organs should not be consumed by natural bodybuilders.

Would this be a fair base line for defining natural bodybuilding?

Hahahaha, I'm going to call you mr. organic, I bet you shop only at whole foods and eat tofu all day. In my mind, you don't push the limits...I smell weakness eminating from your narrowmindedness. You remind of those cats who only workout at the "cleanest" of facilities and wears matching spandex. I bet you workout at planet Fitness don't you? Of course i could be wrong about all of this but I smell a real pussy-cat in you.

[pa_dude]

Originally Posted by AlteredBeast

Hahahaha, I'm going to call you mr. organic, I bet you shop only at whole foods and eat tofu all day. In my mind, you don't push the limits...I smell weakness eminating from your narrowmindedness. You remind of those cats who only workout at the "cleanest" of facilities and wears matching spandex. I bet you workout at planet Fitness don't you? Of course i could be wrong about all of this but I smell a real pussy-cat in you.

I hate to disappoint you AB but, I don't shop at health food stores for organic food nor do I eat tofu. I hate to admit to wearing spandex at times but it is true. Never the less, I like to push limits but, if you noticed my age, I have gotten wiser. Your body is not built to push too hard. Yes, at your age it seems like your invincible but, just like repetitive motion injuries they sneak up on you. Remember, the size of your heart is about the same size whether you weigh 150 or 240 lbs. The more body weight, the more you heart has to work. Also, your joint (cartilage) does strentghen with weight bearing exercise but, does not increase in size proportionately with the additional body weight.
Your physique is impressive but, at what cost later to your internal health. I just wanted to know how close to steroids can you get with natural bodybuilding.
I remember when Frank Zane won the Mr. 0. at 5'9" 180 lbs with symmetry and proportion (although extremely muscular). That appeared to be a much safer yet excellent physique.
I do not preach. I just wanted to know where that fine cut off line between natural and IFBB exists. There seems to be a fine line.
I do appreciate your comments, thanks.

[AlteredBeast]

Natural and IFBB is like comparing Alpha Centauri and Vega...one an orange-yellow star and the other an Enormous Blue star. I'll let you make the connections. I've met alot of older bodybuilders still in it and kickin ass, i've met bodybuilders at the ages of 49 and 54-respectively, actively competing and tearing it up. I do realize that's not possible for everyone. One thing though, as much as I push it, i've taken cues from the older lifters and have begun implementing measures that can "slow" down the trauma and wear and tear. Also, my body has never gotten injured, if the exercise i'm doing hurts in the slightest way i'm dropping it no matter what. I've never touched AAS nor do I have the urge to. I've never done pro-hormones nor anything like it. I see where you're coming from and can appreciate your circumstances; I jumped the gun a tad but i thought i saw something feeble in you. I can see I was wrong and just being naive. I also appreciate the "professionalism" in your response to my aggressive and insulting comments. That shows character-and that more than anything can earn someone's respect, you have mine.

[pa_dude]

Originally Posted by AlteredBeast

Natural and IFBB is like comparing Alpha Centauri and Vega...one an orange-yellow star and the other an Enormous Blue star. I'll let you make the connections. I've met alot of older bodybuilders still in it and kickin ass, i've met bodybuilders at the ages of 49 and 54-respectively, actively competing and tearing it up. I do realize that's not possible for everyone. One thing though, as much as I push it, i've taken cues from the older lifters and have begun implementing measures that can "slow" down the trauma and wear and tear. Also, my body has never gotten injured, if the exercise i'm doing hurts in the slightest way i'm dropping it no matter what. I've never touched AAS nor do I have the urge to. I've never done pro-hormones nor anything like it. I see where you're coming from and can appreciate your circumstances; I jumped the gun a tad but i thought i saw something feeble in you. I can see I was wrong and just being naive. I also appreciate the "professionalism" in your response to my aggressive and insulting comments. That shows character-and that more than anything can earn someone's respect, you have mine.

I not familiar with astronomy terms although I believe Alpha Centauri was referenced in the TV show "Lost in Space". It might be on Fx or Nick and Night now I am not sure. I do know a stars color is indicative of the visible radiation that it is emitting into space. Typically, frequency is directly related to energy the star contains. A star losing energy potential or gaining energy potential will have a shift in the frequency of radiation emitted indicating a dying or growing star. I not sure if you related IFBB to the dying star or just the fact that one will be light and the other dark in the future either way stellar comparision.
I do appreciate your enthusiasm. You are 20 yrs old, at your age I would have made the same observations and comments you did. At your age I did not have money for supplements. I wanted to be built like Mike Mentzer or Casey Viator. I am 5'8" and so is Mike M. I quickly realized that both of these lifters were taking forms of steroid which discouraged me greatly. I also realized that my frame is way to small to hold 200 lbs of weight and look symmetrical. There ended my aggressive attitude for lifting along with a back injury.
As far as exercises that hurt, I hurt my back with abdominal exercises several years ago (reverse crunch). When I performed the exercise it did not hurt. An hour later, trying to stand from a seated position caused tremendous pain. It took me 6 months to isolate and then accept an ab exercise could hurt ones lower back. It blind sided me. My point is there are stressful exercises (kinenologically speaking) like bench press and squats. If you cut down on these types of exercise, your body will be fit will into your 90's. I don't consider 50's old anymore. My point was if your going to push yourself please pick and choose the body area with the exercise.
I apologize for suggesting IFBB and natural bodybuilding are very close in nature. Having not followed bodybuilding for many years, I was suprised at the number of metabolize altering supplements are used by "natural" bodybuilders. On a time line in the early 80's, most supplements were essential vitamins, protein and carbs. I again apologize for my ignorance.
My initial comments were not meant to insult yourself or the natural bodybuilding community at large.
I do hold you in highest regards as a person.
Thanks for your honest and enthusiastic response.

[AlteredBeast]

The star analogy can be interpreted in many ways i suppose, but the way i was using it was that natural bodybuilding is no where near the level or ferocity of the ifbb. A red star is a hell of a lot cooler and smaller(alpha centauri anyways) than a big supergiant blue star. Just a direct comparison, big difference between the two. I've learned what hurts and what doesn't as far as exercises go; bench is ok for me as long as I squeeze the shoulder blades together and stick out my chest w/ an arc in the lower back. I feel no stress in the joints that way. Squatting has always been ok for me. the leg-press believe it or not makes my knees pop. So **** that exercise...ain't worth it. Casey Viator was an awesome bodybuilder who had huge forearms and great thick muscle bellies. He won the Mr. AAU America competition at the age of 19. He was huge and he was under the tutelage of mr. Arthur Jones-Founder of HIT. Mike and his heavy Duty program was basically HIT, mike was one of the first professional bodybuilders to openly claim that genetics and steroids were a huge part of bodybuilding. He also got robbed at the 1980 mr. olympia and never returned. Both are some of my fav. bodybuilders of all time. I pulled my back a few years ago doing something football related, can't remember if it was in practice a game, who knows? But I do vividly remember just how excruciating it is to have a lower back injury. That complex controls everything in the body and now i take EXTRA, EXTRA special care of my lower back. I'll never take my body for granted ever again. Supplements these days claim this or that, but you know what? **** is still the same as it always has been, natural competitors still look the same as they did years ago. why? Because the only thing that has changed in bodybuilding is steroids and that's why bodybuilders look the way they do these days. The natural athlete is never going to radically change appearances as long as they stay natural. No supplement will ever change the sport, why? Because bodybuilding, like most things sport related, is based on the genetics of the individual. You can't change that unless you get into genedoping, which will be evident soon enough. Well, that's it for now man. Peace.

[hawkweight]

Very enlightening. Just read the whole thread and it reminded me of something…I met a guy in 1995 and when I first met him he was a big puffy guy, massive, dripping with arrogance and an overblown sense of well being, self important, in my face with his own bad self, and he let me know right away with his body language and overbearing dominance that he was the big bad king **** of the room, kind of like if I said the wrong thing to him he would rip my ears off an enjoy eating them. I just listened to what he had to say and his mouth moved a lot but what came out was blah blah blah. Saw him again about six months later, a different man, friendly, genuine, mild mannered, tuned in to his surroundings, conversational, but still massive, freaky, looking like a gear collection from Venice Gold’s. I asked him what he’d been up to and he said he’d made the cover of Natural Body Building Magazine and it would be on news stands next month. And then he kind of nervously made it a point to let me know 3 or 4 times that a guy had to be clean for at least 6 months to get a cover like that, repeated it, repeated it. Said he felt great being natural and his career was off and running with this cover gig. This was back in 1995.

I would say if you get there with gear and then dry up and wedge your way into the natural scene you’ve cheated. By base-language definition a “natural” bodybuilder should use only what’s natural, what occurs in nature, without the benefit of modern synthesis or man-made production. There would be no way to regulate a competition like that but it would be very interesting if such regulation existed. Imagine the competitor field.

Realistically though, “natural” would seem to mean not using substances banned by the specific organization in which the contest is held.

[Mark Cotton]

So, if you use asthma medication as prescribed by a doctor for a condition and this helps you get ripped are you natural?

[kenney]

Originally Posted by hawkweight

Very enlightening. Just read the whole thread and it reminded me of something…I met a guy in 1995 and when I first met him he was a big puffy guy, massive, dripping with arrogance and an overblown sense of well being, self important, in my face with his own bad self, and he let me know right away with his body language and overbearing dominance that he was the big bad king **** of the room, kind of like if I said the wrong thing to him he would rip my ears off an enjoy eating them. I just listened to what he had to say and his mouth moved a lot but what came out was blah blah blah. Saw him again about six months later, a different man, friendly, genuine, mild mannered, tuned in to his surroundings, conversational, but still massive, freaky, looking like a gear collection from Venice Gold’s. I asked him what he’d been up to and he said he’d made the cover of Natural Body Building Magazine and it would be on news stands next month. And then he kind of nervously made it a point to let me know 3 or 4 times that a guy had to be clean for at least 6 months to get a cover like that, repeated it, repeated it. Said he felt great being natural and his career was off and running with this cover gig. This was back in 1995.

I would say if you get there with gear and then dry up and wedge your way into the natural scene you’ve cheated. By base-language definition a “natural” bodybuilder should use only what’s natural, what occurs in nature, without the benefit of modern synthesis or man-made production. There would be no way to regulate a competition like that but it would be very interesting if such regulation existed. Imagine the competitor field.

Realistically though, “natural” would seem to mean not using substances banned by the specific organization in which the contest is held.

good post but mark cotton also makes a good point.
there is a girl in my year that recently had a baby...it was born with some disabilities and has to take growth hormone for it to sufficiently grow etc so would a case like that be overlooked?

[Mark Cotton]

How do you overlook these things? What happens if I show up at an OCB show as a competitor with a prescription for Deca because I have unusually low test levels? It's all legit. I win and I fail the drug test because my test level at that time (early evening when test levels are highest) are slightly elevated?

Conversely, if I don't use the HRT at a doctors advice and I really do need it I can't look nearly as good as the guy standing next to me all things being equal.

Thoughts?

[AlteredBeast]

My thoughts are life isn't fair. You take what you can get and move on. If your circumstance is that unique then GREAT! (yes, i'm being Sarcastic) Because the other 98% of the competition will not likely have that situation and there for why would the judges admend pages of strict rules just for one athlete? You're SOL dude if you're in that situation. Hypothetically speaking of course.

[Mark Cotton]

So, if my test levels are within normal range along with the letter from the endocrinologist about the need for HRT do you think I should be disqualified? Technically I would be using?

[Sparky_dustin]

I'm gonna have to agree with AB on this one, if your genetics dont allow you to compete on the same level as other people then you're SOL, blame your parents for giving you ****ty genes cause thats about all you can do.

[AlteredBeast]

Well, if it's legal in the organization then cool, do it...just make sure your test levels are in the normal range. If they don't let you do it (hypothetically) then no, i don't sympathize with you and too bad.

[thug_life]

is okay for naturals to take test boosters like leukic?

[ognickyk]

i tried caffeine...its bad....when it goes down....you feel so tired....i did it before a work out...and.....got home..and fell asleep for like 3 hours after....i dont recomend doing it...if ur looking for energy theres natural foods, like bananas and for metabolism there is always green tea

[Mygeeto]

my definition of a natural bodybuilder is one who is just that. natural.