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Old 02-21-2006, 11:54 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MaKaVeLi
I'm not out here to change ppl's views. People are entitled to their own views but the worthiness of their views are dictated by how educated they are and I think a lot of people are poorly informed or misconceived into thinking muslims are violent, however, this couldn't be further from the truth...
Of course, most people in general aren't violent. IF the news media would explain the difference between Sunni, Shia, and Wahabi Muslims, cover that the vast majority of protest WERE non-violent, or even cover world events in as much depth as they devote to which celebrity is screwing who, we would have a more informed general public.
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Old 02-21-2006, 01:30 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosting
sacrificing yourself to kill others makes sense.
isn't that exactly what happens in war? Exactly what the heros of Dessert Storm did? Exactly what that yellow ribbon means?

Of course murder and violence is never right, but it is explainable, which is not to say justifiable. There are groups doing terrible things everywhere including both Western and Eastern powers that be. We tend, however, to excuse our own and villify the others.

Talking in binaries and dogmatically will never advance any argument. Ad homminem attacks are the refuge of the weak minded.

Certain Muslims blow people up, certain Jews shoot children, certain Christians blow people up and shoot children. I'm not sure if the Budhists are up to anything, but they might be. The point is that just because certain evil people claim to be a part of a group does not mean that the group is bad or the cause of their evil. Other conditions, such as poverty, political will, and psychological instability play a much greater role than religious texts, to think otherwise betrays a fundamental unwillingness to attempt even a modicum of understanding.

Rather than start a laundry list of bad things that governments/groups of people have done in order to point out some sort of inferiority/superiority hierarchy, maybe we might critically examine all of the evil in the world from a morally consitent point f view. Difficult as that may be, it seems the only reasonable course of action.
 
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Last edited by mindstar; 02-21-2006 at 01:31 PM.
 
 
Old 02-21-2006, 02:08 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by mindstar
isn't that exactly what happens in war? [

No, most sane people try to kill and not get killed. They dont go around with bombs strapped to them. No fear of death or respect for totally innocent people. You guys have the worst ideas ever. Ever. I never knew so many Muslims had an IQ of 3. Where do you get this stuff? How do you possibly come up with these horrible ideas?
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Last edited by Ghosting; 02-21-2006 at 02:15 PM.
 
 
Old 02-21-2006, 02:15 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindstar
Exactly what the heros of Dessert Storm did?

No. I like how you knocked the US military, then took the attention off the attack by saying "war is wrong, Im into peace." FYI, there is a big difference between dessert and desert.
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:24 PM   #65
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Muslims are peaceful, yet the LEADERS preach this trash? Mmkay. http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/...ticle_1883.asp
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:29 PM   #66
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just so we're clear, Im talking about the people who are blowing up cars as a result of this cartoon. (thus, they are nutjobs)

in my eyes, they are just as bad as they people who stand in front of churches with signs saying "God Hates Fags".

believing in a religion is one thing, but when you start acting like a lunatic to get your message accross, thats when it's too much.
 
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:30 PM   #67
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^^ Exactly - that's when it stops being about religion altogether and becomes an excuse to preach your own insanity using the religion as a tool to wind up the masses.
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:46 PM   #68
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ok...i can't spell, nice refutation of an argument.

My point in using the American military as an example was not to knock it, but rather to make my argument pertinent to someone living in the US, as you do. Substitute any military participating in any war anywhere. While most individuals in war time indeed try to avoid getting killed, it is an accepted premise, one that is agreed upon by all who participate, that some will be sacraficed for the larger goals of said military. I might also argue that the valourization of such sacrafices is equal on either side of any conflict. Of course, most people don't sign up for conflict in order that they should die, and you may have a point here, however, there are plenty of stories of 'suicide' missions valourized within popular media (be they real or imagined...Saving Private Ryan comes to mind). There are also plenty of innocents killed by people other than Muslims in an equally avoidable manner and have been throughout history.

Of course there are Muslim leaders (self styled or otherwise) who promote violence. There are also Jewish leaders as well as Christian leaders who do the same. I'm not trying to be an appologist for Muslim attrocities, merely pointing out that there are plenty of attrocities committed by people who identify as something other than Muslim.

I can understand your anger and outrage at terrorists, and I assure you I share it; however this anger and outrage, if it leads to more hatred, racism and bogoted thinking serves to do nothing more than become that which it decries.

And just for the reccord, not everyone who claims that Muslims aren't some super evil group of people is actually a Muslim.
 
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Old 02-21-2006, 02:51 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech N9ne
just so we're clear, Im talking about the people who are blowing up cars as a result of this cartoon. (thus, they are nutjobs)

in my eyes, they are just as bad as they people who stand in front of churches with signs saying "God Hates Fags".

believing in a religion is one thing, but when you start acting like a lunatic to get your message accross, thats when it's too much.

No sane person would disagree with you...

There needs to be a delineation between explanation and justification when dealing with these issues and a realization that large scale generalizations (all x are y) do nothing but promote more violence and hatred. That is all I'm trying to get across...
 
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:04 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mindstar
that which it decries.

Incase you missed this post, here is a Muslim leader. Crazy Middle Easterners I guess Muslims dont follow their leaders. If peace is an image you are trying to project, then claim you are a Buddist.
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:17 PM   #71
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I'm an athiest.

Pat Robertson is a Christian leader calling for violence all the time, does that mean Christians are evil? Of course not. Some are, just as some muslims are, just as some Jews are, just as...


Hell, Hitler claimed to be a Christian too. The point is that you can look at these people and realise that they are violent extremists and not representative of their religions any more than Hitler, McVeigh, Robertson, etc are representatives of their faith.

I think the only thing we disagree on is the totality of your arguments.
 
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:20 PM   #72
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Old 02-21-2006, 03:21 PM   #73
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Shit! Now I've posted that am I gonna get $1 million price on my head!!!







As if I'm worth that much. Someone would do me in for a tenner.
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