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Old 11-06-2009, 05:01 PM   #1
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I'm gonna flow with the assumption here that most of the members on this site enjoy the process of "learning". I assume this because it's a forum; a place where the curious flock for help, question answering, and support during the bodybuilding excursion.

The premise behind a lot of what goes on in the dungeon is science, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. If you look within a science-oriented thread like, for example, a nutrition thread, chances are the most supported claims are buttressed by reputable and proven science. Whenever something seems questionable, sources and clear-cut studies are demanded to reveal the unquestionable truth.

I like this. Considering we have 43,000 members here with a raw average of around 800-1200 who are active, I think it's safe to say we all share a liking for science -- an extensively complex field that wades into the unknown.

So, with that said, why do you guys like coming on here and learning? And for those who nodded their heads when they read the above paragraph, what is it about science that you like?

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Old 11-06-2009, 07:10 PM   #2
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Very interesting thread KM. I like coming on here and learning because I'm surrounded by people who share the same interest(s) and strive for perfection both in and out of the gym. When it comes to the science of bodybuilding, I am so intrigued by the vast number of variables and factors that go into making the body grow. I was actually just thinking about this today. The human body is so complex yet all the activities and processes that allow us to live all seem to fit together perfectly. The Krebs cycle, respiration, the list goes on and on of how all these processes go hand in hand, as well as with non human activities (photosynthesis, etc.). I sometimes have to step back from it all because it does it overwhelming at times. Science is a field like no other; there are so many questions left unanswered, and when it seems like one is answered, that very answer changes the next day. Think of all the science that goes into bodybuilding, from training to eating to sleeping to supplementation. I could go on for pages, but I feel like I would just be repeating myself because I just can't stress enough how mind-boggling, yet amazing, bodybuilding and science can be.

Great thread, KM. Reps.
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Old 11-06-2009, 07:50 PM   #3
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I enjoy science because i see the footprints of intelligent design all over it, the perfection and symmetry of the human body can only be the result of a like mind and an imitation of God's own image. The different systems and hormones in their infinite complexity but perfect efficiency still remain for the most part a profound mystery. That's what I love about the science of bodybuilding, the quest for understanding of one's own body by hands-on experience, not just from a textbook.
 
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:22 PM   #4
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Kick ass insight guys! I like it a lot, and I'm sure the majority of the people on here could relate!

It seems like the more people I talk to who are involved in the sport, the more people I realize find their niche in science as a spawn of bodybuilding/weight-training (as did I). Which makes sense - in order to progress and make improvements, you need to hone in on the specifics and bedrock details -- the science.

I'm gonna travel slightly astray here:

First, bodybuilding is an all-or-none principle, similar to that of a neuron. Unless the neuron's completely depolarized (Na+ permeates the membrane into cytoplasm), it's not going to "fire" and relay the message down the axon. Bodybuilding works in the same sense, if you don't muster up the strength and go head-first into the sport, chances are you won't make any significant, vast or desired improvements. It's a sport that serves as a consolation for most people; where the body does the work and the mind and character reap the benefits.

Science is different for me, though.

It's the only, true stepping stone we as people can take towards understanding the physicality of this planet, as well as how it operates. It delves into such a deeply mystified field of knowledge that only someone who is inquisitive enough can venture through it. What sets me apart from you guys, though, is the fact that science yields productive stupidity. It's one disciplinary field that I, at times, can feel completely dumbfounded about, even thought I continue to make advancements.

Every question yields an answer that inevitably yields another question.
__________________
Ipsa scientia potestas est.

Proof that hard work grants success:
Postulate 1: Knowledge is Power
Postulate 2: Time is money
Postulate 3: Success is measure by wealth


In physics,
Power = Work / Time

Substitution dictates:
Knowledge = Work / Money

Solve for Money which = Success:
Money = Success = Work / Knowledge

Thus, success is determined by the amount of work you put in so long as you maintain a certain level of knowledge :)
 
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:39 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KM View Post

First, bodybuilding is an all-or-none principle, similar to that of a neuron. Unless the neuron's completely depolarized (Na+ permeates the membrane into cytoplasm), it's not going to "fire" and relay the message down the axon. Bodybuilding works in the same sense, if you don't muster up the strength and go head-first into the sport, chances are you won't make any significant, vast or desired improvements. It's a sport that serves as a consolation for most people; where the body does the work and the mind and character reap the benefits.
I totally agree! My friends who are into bodybuilding, and even MMA, do have that "hardcore" or "balls-to-the wall" mentality. As do I. I feel that becoming involved in the sport of bodybuilding has made me a lot more disciplined, focused, and hardcore. Do you guys feel that bodybuilding MAKES us hardcore, or do you feel that people that have that "all or nothing" attitude become attracted to bodybuilding?

Btw, Kev, the next time I can rep you, I will. I really, really like the way you think. You're one smart kid.
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:56 PM   #6
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Great metaphor there man. I feel like if I don't have the "all" constituent, what is the point? Without a great diet, why should I even step foot in the gym? Just my personal opinion and mentality. Yes, you can have great workouts and gains with a subpar diet, but why settle for subpar? Why not achieve your greatest potential. I know it sounds cliche and all, but do we have limits? Are there constraints that are body cannot surpass? Just because someone hasn't reached those limits, are they declared unachievable? As humanity develops, we began to prove ourselves wrong, thus pointing us to the "right." Advancements can be made, but, overtime, those advancements will be replaced with better knowledge and ideas, or that same, original advancement will be further developed. Just like your signature, KM, knowledge is power; we keep gaining knowledge, and thus we keep gaining power, both in a mental, physical, and emotional sense. A positive correlation between learning and growth, both mentally, and, in the case of bodybuilding, applying that mental growth to yield physical growth.
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:21 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by aild54 View Post
I totally agree! My friends who are into bodybuilding, and even MMA, do have that "hardcore" or "balls-to-the wall" mentality. As do I. I feel that becoming involved in the sport of bodybuilding has made me a lot more disciplined, focused, and hardcore. Do you guys feel that bodybuilding MAKES us hardcore, or do you feel that people that have that "all or nothing" attitude become attracted to bodybuilding?

Btw, Kev, the next time I can rep you, I will. I really, really like the way you think. You're one smart kid.
Thanks dude, no reps necessary!

I think you answered your own question, really. "The sport of bodybuilding has made me.....". I think people who are inclined to put in the effort, will easily assimilate into the bodybuilding lifestyle. It's one of few sports that I can think of that fits the bill in every conceivable way!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GettinITDone View Post
Great metaphor there man. I feel like if I don't have the "all" constituent, what is the point? Without a great diet, why should I even step foot in the gym? Just my personal opinion and mentality. Yes, you can have great workouts and gains with a subpar diet, but why settle for subpar? Why not achieve your greatest potential. I know it sounds cliche and all, but do we have limits? Are there constraints that are body cannot surpass? Just because someone hasn't reached those limits, are they declared unachievable? As humanity develops, we began to prove ourselves wrong, thus pointing us to the "right." Advancements can be made, but, overtime, those advancements will be replaced with better knowledge and ideas, or that same, original advancement will be further developed. Just like your signature, KM, knowledge is power; we keep gaining knowledge, and thus we keep gaining power, both in a mental, physical, and emotional sense. A positive correlation between learning and growth, both mentally, and, in the case of bodybuilding, applying that mental growth to yield physical growth.
I like you. Your mentality is one that I wish people put more time into recognizing. In a sense, what you're saying is passion prevails, regardless of any hardships one must overcome. I truly believe in that, which is why I feel bodybuilding runs parallel to science in terms of self-gratification and self-improvement. Each of these (science, learning, and bodybuilding) spur bouts of hopelessness and flaw, but even when this does occur; even when we do feel like we have failed, we are still growing.

As far as being cliche, you're sounding anything but. If it was cliche, many people would feel this way and incorporate into their lifestyle, which I can tell you, they don't.
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Ipsa scientia potestas est.

Proof that hard work grants success:
Postulate 1: Knowledge is Power
Postulate 2: Time is money
Postulate 3: Success is measure by wealth


In physics,
Power = Work / Time

Substitution dictates:
Knowledge = Work / Money

Solve for Money which = Success:
Money = Success = Work / Knowledge

Thus, success is determined by the amount of work you put in so long as you maintain a certain level of knowledge :)
 
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Old 11-06-2009, 09:38 PM   #8
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i think its awesome when i learn something on here and learn about 50% of my biology material at the same time. just took a test on glycolysis, krebs cycle, etc. and finished in 10 mins no lie. 60 mins alotted and everyone stared at me when i left
 
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Old 11-06-2009, 10:17 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by KM View Post
Thanks dude, no reps necessary!

I think you answered your own question, really. "The sport of bodybuilding has made me.....". I think people who are inclined to put in the effort, will easily assimilate into the bodybuilding lifestyle. It's one of few sports that I can think of that fits the bill in every conceivable way!
I did, but do you think it takes the people that like it (bodybuilding) and transforms them into a more "hardcore" person, or do you think it attracts the people that already have the desire to be passionate about something (and already have the hardcore mentality), and multiplies it?

You're getting more reps, whether you like it or not!
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aild54 View Post
I did, but do you think it takes the people that like it (bodybuilding) and transforms them into a more "hardcore" person, or do you think it attracts the people that already have the desire to be passionate about something (and already have the hardcore mentality), and multiplies it?

You're getting more reps, whether you like it or not!
Hmmm. I would have to say both. Maybe we can get a few people to answer this question on behalf of their own experience, or other's experience. I mean, I could speculate here, but I'd like to see what other people think first.
__________________
Ipsa scientia potestas est.

Proof that hard work grants success:
Postulate 1: Knowledge is Power
Postulate 2: Time is money
Postulate 3: Success is measure by wealth


In physics,
Power = Work / Time

Substitution dictates:
Knowledge = Work / Money

Solve for Money which = Success:
Money = Success = Work / Knowledge

Thus, success is determined by the amount of work you put in so long as you maintain a certain level of knowledge :)
 
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Old 11-06-2009, 11:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KM View Post
.

So, with that said, why do you guys like coming on here and learning? And for those who nodded their heads when they read the above paragraph, what is it about science that you like?

Go!
let me say first off , great topic to discuss KM,,

ok why do i like coming here, i`ll address this first..

I joined because i was doing a search on a particular supplement i was looking at using and well the dungeon had the most insightful posts i found, on the subject, so i joined, so in search of knowledge i have arrived..

Why do i enjoy learning,
because its never a done job, the more i learn the more i realize how much i dont know, part of what i think makes the dungeon forums work is that for the most part questions are addressed in a helpful manor which leads to more discussions and different points of view,

I`ll give you a example, when i read out of my text book about nutrition i get stuck on some of the info i`m reading, so in my mind i have no other view other than the one i`m reading, but when the subject comes up in a thread and its explained in different views, it comes together and i kinda like smack my head and go well duh!!

this is what makes learning so much more interesting than just reading out of a book, brainstorming i guess we could also call it, i know i have learned to change my point of views on things i thought i was correct, only to be shown that once again i have learned something new. learning opens my mind to new things and helps me to be more open to different points of view...

ok on to the science,,,
How can anyone not be overwhelmed with the mechanics of science, everything has a purpose, all the variables that are needed for muscle growth, burning body fat, having a healthy mind, i mean the topic is endless,

you have foods, supplements, training styles, bulking diets, cutting diets, and once you open one it takes you on a road to what is needed for this to happen, what needs to change, what causes this to work what wont work, and it all comes from science,
everything is linked one way or the other, if not then there would only be one book for cutting, one for bulking, one for training, one for cardio,one for supplements,, ect.. , but no we have endless amounts of info, scientific studies on the micro level, double blind studies, medical reviews, training experiments, and even with all that things are still debated and not fully understood ,
i could go on and on here, but to summarize it its the quest for knowledge in something i find truly amazing that has no end in sight.
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USP ReCreate Review
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:15 AM   #12
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I only seek knowledge and nothing else. i like this place and im glad my friend told me to join this forum, and learning this other branch of science.
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:19 AM   #13
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2. To spread HIS doctrine of ketogenic dieting.
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Old 11-07-2009, 02:27 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeh40+ View Post
let me say first off , great topic to discuss KM,,

ok why do i like coming here, i`ll address this first..

I joined because i was doing a search on a particular supplement i was looking at using and well the dungeon had the most insightful posts i found, on the subject, so i joined, so in search of knowledge i have arrived..

Why do i enjoy learning,
because its never a done job, the more i learn the more i realize how much i dont know, part of what i think makes the dungeon forums work is that for the most part questions are addressed in a helpful manor which leads to more discussions and different points of view,

I`ll give you a example, when i read out of my text book about nutrition i get stuck on some of the info i`m reading, so in my mind i have no other view other than the one i`m reading, but when the subject comes up in a thread and its explained in different views, it comes together and i kinda like smack my head and go well duh!!

this is what makes learning so much more interesting than just reading out of a book, brainstorming i guess we could also call it, i know i have learned to change my point of views on things i thought i was correct, only to be shown that once again i have learned something new. learning opens my mind to new things and helps me to be more open to different points of view...

ok on to the science,,,
How can anyone not be overwhelmed with the mechanics of science, everything has a purpose, all the variables that are needed for muscle growth, burning body fat, having a healthy mind, i mean the topic is endless,

you have foods, supplements, training styles, bulking diets, cutting diets, and once you open one it takes you on a road to what is needed for this to happen, what needs to change, what causes this to work what wont work, and it all comes from science,
everything is linked one way or the other, if not then there would only be one book for cutting, one for bulking, one for training, one for cardio,one for supplements,, ect.. , but no we have endless amounts of info, scientific studies on the micro level, double blind studies, medical reviews, training experiments, and even with all that things are still debated and not fully understood ,
i could go on and on here, but to summarize it its the quest for knowledge in something i find truly amazing that has no end in sight.
great post mike, always love to see your insight on things always put things into perspective
 
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Old 11-07-2009, 07:25 AM   #15
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great post mike, always love to see your insight on things always put things into perspective
well thanks dude
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New Training log
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...40-living.html

USP ReCreate Review
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...tml#post727522

APS Phenadrine Review ,,
http://www.bodybuildingdungeon.com/f...rting-aps.html
 
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Old 11-07-2009, 10:43 AM   #16
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I am a chemist in real life, so you can see I am anchored in science. Unfortunately, advanced chemistry is the one major part of bodybuilding that I want to stay out of.

For me, bodybuilding will mostly be physics and biology. I'll gladly leave the chemistry to those with bigger balls than me (See that's irony because your balls shrink on AAS, haha).

I look forward to scientific advancements in the fields of nutrition and kinesiology. Chemistry is a bitch lover that I have to put up with at work, but not in my hobbies.
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Old 11-07-2009, 11:35 PM   #17
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Personally i like the science because i thinks its incredibly interesting to learn how the body actually works. And secondly to get a good laugh at how much bull **** there is in the world about how the body works and what drugs/supplements/nutrition will do!
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Old 11-08-2009, 12:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cork View Post
I am a chemist in real life, so you can see I am anchored in science. Unfortunately, advanced chemistry is the one major part of bodybuilding that I want to stay out of.

For me, bodybuilding will mostly be physics and biology. I'll gladly leave the chemistry to those with bigger balls than me (See that's irony because your balls shrink on AAS, haha).

I look forward to scientific advancements in the fields of nutrition and kinesiology. Chemistry is a bitch lover that I have to put up with at work, but not in my hobbies.
i totally feel you, les chemistry in my life the better. im having a great time in organic chem right now
 
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Old 11-08-2009, 03:09 AM   #19
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to look good
to feel good, physically
to build/support self-esteem
to enhance/generate a positive body image
to offset the degeneration of aging (strength, posture, joint inhabilites).
to be sexually attractive
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Old 11-09-2009, 05:17 AM   #20
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Learning = good.

Regardless if it's science, philosophy, culture, etc.

I come here for it all.
 
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:13 AM   #21
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As much as everyone on here seems to enjoy the learning process, I would say there is an equal amount of people -- if not more -- who plead for the quick, easy answer that doesn't require any 'thinking'. That's why I'm extremely intrigued by this; what seems to be an innate desire for some people, is often completely contrary for other people.

To me, science and the foundation it lays upon is our only means for making any form of progress in this world. Many people concede with this notion and realize it's verity, yet still fail to take any strides to take part in it. This is interesting to me, and the more I try to rationalize it, the more I realize how irrational it really is.
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In physics,
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Substitution dictates:
Knowledge = Work / Money

Solve for Money which = Success:
Money = Success = Work / Knowledge

Thus, success is determined by the amount of work you put in so long as you maintain a certain level of knowledge :)
 
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:20 AM   #22
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It's not that irrational. Unless someone is deeply interested in something they just won't take the time to learn how to do it. I could make home-made balsamic vinegar if I really wanted to, but I would rather just pay for the bottle. It's human nature to want what you want as quick as possible and without as much effort as possible.
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:23 AM   #23
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I don't understand the gratification involved in taking the easy route, that's what I'm saying. Nothing's gained.
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Postulate 1: Knowledge is Power
Postulate 2: Time is money
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In physics,
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Substitution dictates:
Knowledge = Work / Money

Solve for Money which = Success:
Money = Success = Work / Knowledge

Thus, success is determined by the amount of work you put in so long as you maintain a certain level of knowledge :)
 
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:24 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KM View Post
I don't understand the gratification involved in taking the easy route, that's what I'm saying. Nothing's gained.
Yeah, there isn't any really. It's just human nature.
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:29 AM   #25
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The gratification is the end result and getting as much done with as little effort. If a man walks ten miles and another man rides a bike ten miles they both gain the same goal, the only difference would be the man that walked would be more satisfied in his experience and the man that rode would be more satisfied that he made the trip quicker.
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Old 11-10-2009, 01:31 AM   #26
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Excellent example bro! You just proved my post wrong, I didn't put much thought into it.
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:21 AM   #27
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Wow KM great topic!
I love the science as well, as im a vet tech involved with biology. Im real big in pharmacokinetics and -dynamics so I have always been interested in supplements but mostly because its just what interests me.
I would have to say I lived a hardcore life in wich body duilding has always been a part of. I grew up in a bad town, ended up in state prison where I continued to build my body, came home and im still doing it. Its one of those things that I never grow tired of.
I found the dungeon like mike did, researching a supplement. The bbd has alot of knowledge. I like it, love it.
Thanks for all the interesting replies fellas, great insight here
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:12 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas_Rivera View Post
The gratification is the end result and getting as much done with as little effort. If a man walks ten miles and another man rides a bike ten miles they both gain the same goal, the only difference would be the man that walked would be more satisfied in his experience and the man that rode would be more satisfied that he made the trip quicker.
Thomas,
great example of what your getting at, i have to agree with your statement as well, everyone has a different view of whats gratifying, and how to achieve their own form of gratification
Quote:
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I don't understand the gratification involved in taking the easy route, that's what I'm saying. Nothing's gained.
just because something may appear to be the easy way out for you or me, it can also be looked at as the hard way for someone else,
example and i`ll use something we all can somewhat understand , since were on the issue of bodybuilding and talking or referring to the easy way in this particular post

steroids, some say its the easy way or "cheating" to achieve muscle growth while natural bodybuilders prefer to go it on their own and take the time involved to grow naturally
while both need to pay attention to diet and also to training, one road will lead to faster growth,
for the steroid user he or she will look at the gains made and be quite content with how they came upon those gains, in months rather than years,

for the natural bodybuilder he or she will look at the gains made over the same amount of time and see little growth as the steroid user, often its been stated that being natural is more rewarding than taking the easy way or cheating to gain muscle over the long run, but then again there are variables involved in both styles,

the steroid user while making faster gains, also has to deal with the side effects and possible damage by using this method , setting up cycles, pinning daily, taking multiple drugs to counter possible issues with other drugs, PCT, hair loss, ect..also training and diet as well is needed to be in proper order same as with a natural bodybuilder,
so i look at that and say , damn now that does not look all that easy to me, seems like a lot of work figuring out how to properly use all that stuff, how to keep the gains after, how to keep the body healthy, easy way ? not in my eyes,, but to others yes it may be looked at as easy and less gratifying,
but to the steroid user,gaining in months what takes a natural bodybuilder years to grow is gratifying to them.

now the natural builder will also take everything into play, diet , training, recovery ect. to use to any advantage for muscle growth, maybe we`ll grow a few pounds of muscle in a year maybe not,
to the steroid user this is not gratifying, to us any growth we gain is very gratifying, it takes forever and one must have patience this way, but in the end it all comes out to how we feel about how we got to were we are,

easy for some is not necessarily easy for others, gratifying for you may not be gratifying for others, and i believe that plays a part in everything that we do in life,
to the degree of how much a person is willing to learn or the amount of knowledge someone is looking for in life is independent on what each person finds fulfilling, or gratifying in this case, there is always something to learn but if your not finding any gratification from it the amount your willing to put into the effort will be either easy or hard, ok, last one, i just want to get my thoughts out here so i make sense,
lets say your looking for some info on complex carbs and how they are used in conjunction with a good diet, some people just want the " hey- when and how much should i eat each day and what complex carbs are the best, all they are looking for is a easy and quick answer to their question,
now lets take it a step further, like myself, when i got into all this last year and with the help from "Freak" aka Brent, with my diet, i had a good understanding already of complex carbs and which ones were the good ones and so forth, but what i needed help with was the amounts and how to place that info into a daily diet, once i got that info covered i was now interested in the more complex breakdown of why the complex carbs do what they do, so i bought the book he recommended, Understanding Nutrition, did i really need all that extra info , no but I found it more gratifying for myself learning everything i can about something, some call it anal, some call it overdoing it, some call it boring,, i call it gratifying, so while that may be more than some want to know, we both end up with the same thing, gratification in what we were searching for..
damn i hope this makes sense its really long winded..
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Old 11-10-2009, 12:33 PM   #29
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The #1 reason i joined this forum was after chking it out & reading threads that were put up by younger guys, mainly in the gear section, I knew by reading the post that came by you guys that you cared about these people & you would help them make the right decession. I have been on many forums as im sure alot of you have, but i feel like this group of guys/ gals care.lol
 
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:07 PM   #30
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Wow Mike, reps! Like you said, gratification is subjective to the individual, as is much in this sport. Yes, there are underlying factors that seem universal, but just a tweak can have a greater effect on one person more so than another. There really is nothing to add to your post; it about sums it up.

On another point (because this post has really caused me to come to a sort of self-realization): I am intrigued by the biochemistry taking place at the cellular level. While I have no desire to take drugs, I am nonetheless intrigued by the drugs and how they affect the human body. But it doesn't just start with drugs. (Just to clarify, when I say drugs, I am defining them as substances used to enhance or manipulate the human body). Food and supplements carry this same fascination. I am amazed at how food can affect the human body. However, it is not enough to ask how food affects the human body, but why. I find myself asking the question "why?" to many things in life. Why do you need protein to repair muscle? What is happening at the molecular level when the body breaks down muscle and how the body repairs that muscle to make it stronger? Why is it that when I take an NO supplement that I get a stronger "pump"? Sure, it's great that I'm getting a "pump," but what is going on in my body to produce such "pump?" Why is it that when I take an antihistamine that my allergy symptoms cease? I'm not satisfied knowing that when I take an OTC medicine for cold/cough/allergy/pain/heartburn/etc./etc., that the symptoms will cease; I want to know why they will cease. It seems as if I'm just rambling off into pointless, meaningless thoughts; there may be some truth to that. However, like Kevin said, I become, in a sense, dumbfounded when I try to understand science and the way it affects humans. I become at a loss for words because it amazes me of all the processes that human body goes through, and the technology we have to manipulate the human body to our liking. I digress.
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