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Old 04-22-2006, 03:41 AM   #121
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Don't forget Ronnie's calves.

No way Ron has better symmetry than Jay.

 
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Old 04-22-2006, 03:50 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flex
No way Ron has better symmetry than Jay.
Which is why I put Jay ahead of Ronnie in the symmetry category
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 06:41 AM   #123
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so we have another one of lineskis famous 10 page analyses,only this time hes trying to judge the 05 olympia.first of all jay beats ronnie on everything except mass wich they are very close.and muscle maturity doesnt have anything to do with conditioning also define muscle maturity.if you mean how long ronnie has been training thats just wrong.the amount of years you have been training shouldn't have anything to do with the results of the olympia.JUST SO YOU KNOW JAY CUTLER IS GOING TO WIN THE OLYMPIA THIS YEAR AND THERE IS NOTHING ANYBODY CAN DO TO STOP HIM NOT EVEN RONNIE HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HA
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 07:24 AM   #124
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you forgot to say ronnie has no triceps and "cuts out"
and you know what, you're right: jay DOES beat ronnie in everything! hence why he is the champ!
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Old 04-22-2006, 07:40 AM   #125
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you are right peanut my bad, ronnie has no triceps (just look at the recent pics of him)and CUTS OUT BABY CUTS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 09:39 AM   #126
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you're right lineski. ronnie is second to none!
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 12:41 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big red machine
so we have another one of lineskis famous 10 page analyses,only this time hes trying to judge the 05 olympia.
Yes, and that was probably my longest analysis ever because:

A) it was something I've been meaning to do for awhile out of curiousity
B) we've been talking about the '05 Olympia in this thread so it's relevant
C) I mentioned I'd do it and then was asked by miniduck after I forgot...the people have spoken and they want Lineski

On top of this, I said in my original post that I'm not saying this is the way the Olympia should be judged or is judged, just that it's an interesting perspective where I can take all the time I want to analyze photos (which I know don't tell the whole story but still...) and then compare the athletes to each other with different criteria. Do you read my posts or just see they're long and just assume I do nothing but talk **** on Cutler for the entire thing and then "retaliate"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by big red machine
first of all jay beats ronnie on everything except mass wich they are very close.and muscle maturity doesnt have anything to do with conditioning also define muscle maturity. if you mean how long ronnie has been training thats just wrong.the amount of years you have been training shouldn't have anything to do with the results of the olympia.
First, Ronnie is much thicker than Jay from the side so mass really isn't that close. Jay has come close in width which I'll admit, but not thickness. As far as all the categories that I judged are concerned, I listed reasons as to why I placed people where and expected people to respectfully disagree and offer their $.02. You can at least list or show with pictures why Jay beats Ronnie in conditioning and shape (I've already awarded Jay symmetry over Ronnie so no need to go there).

Ronnie also out-conditioned Jay. What do I mean by muscle maturity and how does it apply? It basically means after prolonged periods of training your muscles take on a different look to them and grow denser with better detail than before. Muscles can only grow to a certain extent but when they are still given a stimulus to grow the fibers do strengthen and change. It's a different quality of muscle.

I agree that the amount of years someone's been training shouldn't have to do directly with the results of the Olympia but it does have physiological effects on skeletal muscle, which can't be ignored if an athlete is in shape. Sure, other athletes have great muscle maturity as well but they don't come close to possessing the total package of everything else like Ronnie does to go along with it.
 
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Last edited by Lineski; 04-22-2006 at 12:49 PM..
 
 
Old 04-22-2006, 01:05 PM   #128
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nicely done lineski
even with an unbiased in my view analysis coleman still comes ut on top!
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:07 PM   #129
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com on lineski ronnie out conditioned jay thats ridiculous jay was so sharp and hard he looked like he was made out of steele.now ronnie wasnt sharp and he was flat so there is no way on gods green earth that ronnie out conditioned jay.and ronnie is thicker from the side but thats it so the side chest goes to ronnie and the side tricep goes to jay,so they are even from the side.so does it mean that arnold didnt have any muscle maturity when he won his first mr o because he was 23?and i do read the entire post and truth to be told i like your 10 page boring analyses,so keep them coming my friend.CUTS OUT BABY CUTS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:14 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lineski367
Here comes a long-winded post for sure.

Okay, so I took the top 10 at the Olympia and ranked them all 1-10 in each of the following categories: Condition (30% of total), Mass (30%), Shape (20%), Symmetry (20%). Condition and Mass are the two highest weighted categories due to their paramount demand at the Olympia. The higher the ranking, the higher amount of points you get (for example 1st place for a category is awarded 10 points, 2nd gets 9, etc...). At the end of each description I'll add their cumulative weighted score up to that point. Here's what I came up with, feel free to chime in your feelings.

Note: Pictures were examined from prejudging

Conditioning
Looking for: Overall leaness, overal detail and striations (particularly in the back and glutes), vascularity, dryness, seperation.

1. Darrem - Shredded. The only place he lacks some crispness is his back but his incredible vascularity and detail more than makes up for it. (3 pts)
2. Ronnie - Despite missing some detail in his back db he was still incredibly lean with tight glutes, viens everywhere, and striations and maturity like no one else on stage. (2.7 pts)
3. Jay - Really, the only thing seperating he and Ronnie here is some slight glute tightness, very little lower back water, and muscle maturity. Incredibly close but Ronnie proves that some things, particularly muscle detail, gets better with age. (2.4 pts)
4. Branch - Tight everywhere and has a grainy look similar to dorian but someone lacks incredible seperation particularly in his back and arms. Super dry. (2.1 pts)
5. Gustavo - Always gets tighter as the show goes on and it was evident here as his glutes and lower back tightened up a lot between prejudging and the night show. (1.8 pts)
6. Gunter - Great condition but lacks detail in the hamstrings, arms, and intercostals in comparison to the top guys. (1.5 pts)
7. Vic - Quad seperation not as defined as anyone above him and despite good chest striations you can tell there's incredible detail below about five more pounds of fat/water that's eagerly waiting to pop out. (1.2 pts)
8. Melvin - Not nearly as tight in the glutes, which is always a trouble spot for him and his back was a bit watery as well. Despite this, his arms and back still show great detail in all side poses and and his quads are deeply seperated. (0.9 pts)
9. DJ - It's not that DJ was off, just everyone ahead of him was on and he still, for whatever reason, doesn't have the detail the guys aboved him showed. This holds true in areas like back, arms, and legs (from the front). His coloring also wasn't optimal and hurt his display. (0.6 pts)
10. Mustafa - Need I say more? (0.3 pts)

Mass
Looking for: Mass without distention or oddly shaped body parts

1. Ronnie - (5.7 pts)
2. Jay - This was a good size for Jay, but he can't expect to outmass the big nasty. (5.1 pts)
3. DJ - Massive and thick but slightly lacks overall back and leg size when compared to Ronnie and Jay. His waistline also is taken into consideration and did not help him in this category. (3 pts)
4. Mustafa - His wide waist takes away from his overall illusion of being more massive than the others. Still, his quads more than make up for any other mass shortcomings such as his back or arms. (2.4 pts)
5. Vic - Not going to outmass the big guys but still sports incredibly wide shoulders and a very thick chest and back; this combination of thickness gave him the nod over Gunter. (3 pts)
6. Gunter - Down-sized this year and his legs, shoulders, and chest aren't as full as we've seen. Great shape, but sacrificed thickness; height certaintly helps him here because he is still fairly well filled out. (3 pts)
7. Branch - Incredibly thick but his shorter stature and smaller structure hurts him in this category. Yes, his chest and legs are both massive but the guys that placed ahead of him are all sporting great chests and thighs with thick backs and huge arms to go with them; still very close and hard to judge. (3.3 pts)
8. Gustavo - Not small by any means, he just isn't quite as massive as the guys that placed ahead of him. (2.7 pts)
9. Melvin (1.5 pts)
10. Darrem (3.3 pts)

Shape
Looking for: Actual shape of muscles, great tie-ins, flowing lines

1. Melvin - Not a standout bodypart on him; everything ties together nicely. Good shape of legs, especially his hamstrings, as well as arms, chest, and back. Everything flows well. (3.5 pts)
2. Darrem - Muscle by muscle he has great shape but they don't quite tie in as well as Melvins. Still, great bis, tris, abs, and delts. (5.1 pts)
3. Vic - Only lagging bodypart would be calves, which could stand to be a bit larger. Vic's gotten a little thicker around the midsection which is the only reason he wasn't higher but other than that he has incredible shape to his physique; just doesn't have the impossibly tiny joints like Darrem and Melvin (4.6 pts)
4. Gustavo - Good shape but doesn't have the shoulder to waist ratio like the guys ahead of him do. He's also not quite as full, either. (4.1 pts)
5. Ronnie - I know Cutler fans are screaming BS at this one but look at his bodyparts. He has the best chest, biceps, glutes, and back in the sport which more than make up for his shortcomings. On top of this, he paid attention to "the mandate" and brought his waistline down considerably despite not having the best ab shape. (6.9 pts)
6. Jay - His legs were unseen and his back has definately been brought up to become one of the best but his flat chest and very thick midsection (even when not exhaling) definately brought him down a notch in this category. (6.1 pts)
7. Gunter - Looks like an golden era bodybuilder which is both a good and bad thing. He has good, not great, lines and looks athletic but because of his frame (ie. his wide hips) he needs more mass across the top to look better. He also didn't come in as full, which hurt him. (3.8 pts)
8. Branch - Still needs a back and a little tricep mass to match the rest of him but his legs are on par with Jay's as being the best out there and his chest, abs, and shoulders are also standouts. (3.9 pts)
9. Mustafa - Doesn't do himself justice in the mandatories and appears to have too long a torso. His arms (triceps) and back also have to improve in order to move up. (2.8 pts)
10. DJ - Besides the fact that he was rude to our members (which I didn't really count), his waistline was bad and his quads from the front don't match his massive chest and shoulder combination. He also has high lats that appear to make his torso longer than it is. (3.2 pts)

Symmetry
Looking for: Balance from side-to-side and top-to-bottom. Very tough category to judge. Looking more for flaws than anything else

1. Melvin - (5.5 pts)
2. Darrem - Really a coinflip between him and Melvin, just needs slightly more leg size to be in balance with his upper body. (6.9 pts)
3. Gustavo - Looks even overall, despite holding his left arm higher in the front relaxed pose for some reason. (5.7 pts)
4. Gunter - Gained symmetry by sacrificing size. (5.2 pts)
5. Vic - The only flaw I spot is that his quads look different and some were commenting he might have in fact injured his right quad. If so, it's hardly noticable. (5.8 pts)
6. Jay - Flaws include legs and arms that appear the different in size but his body is very much in-sync with itself from front to back and side to side. (7.1 pts)
7. Ronnie - Really a toss-up between he and Jay because Ronnie also has one or two symmetrical flaws such as a difference between his left and right lat and his triceps. (7.7 pts)
8. Branch - Legs, particularly his calves, overpower the upper body and his back is not up to par with the rest of him either. Looks good left to right though. (4.5 pts)
9. Mustafa - His upper body looks good side to side and front to back but his torso appears long in comparison to his legs which also overpower his entire upper body in every pose. (3.2 pts)
10. DJ - Besides his midsection, his legs don't come close to matching his massive upper body, which is a bigger crime than having an upper body that doesn't match massive legs. (3.4 pts)

OVERALL

1. Ronnie Coleman (7.7)
2. Jay Cutler (7.1)
3. Darrem (6.9)
4. Vic (5.8)
5. Gustavo (5.7)
6. Melvin (5.5)
7. Gunter (5.2)
8. Branch (4.5)
9. DJ (3.4)
10. Mustafa (3.2)

I'm somewhat suprised by the results. The difference here is that the IFBB definately weighs mass in more than anything else and I think if we switched my percentage breakdown to something like 40% for Mass and only 10% for Symmetry it'd be pretty close to the overall Olympia placings. Still, I did have four of the ten athletes in the same place in comparison to the actual judging. I just think this was an interesting study to compare the top ten athletes in each individual category and rank them as the IFBB judges are supposed to; the difference of course is I tell you exactly how I'm weighting each category and the judges just sort of do their own thing without explination.

Please don't get on my ass over the results if you disagree because I'm sure a lot of you will. I'm not saying this is the way the Olympia placings should have gone or the way these athletes should be ranked or even the way I like their physiques; it just came out the way it did.
Lineski for IFBB head judge
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 01:18 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big red machine
com on lineski ronnie out conditioned jay thats ridiculous jay was so sharp and hard he looked like he was made out of steele.now ronnie wasnt sharp and he was flat so there is no way on gods green earth that ronnie out conditioned jay.and ronnie is thicker from the side but thats it so the side chest goes to ronnie and the side tricep goes to jay,so they are even from the side.so does it mean that arnold didnt have any muscle maturity when he won his first mr o because he was 23?and i do read the entire post and truth to be told i like your 10 page boring analyses,so keep them coming my friend.CUTS OUT BABY CUTS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!
Maybe we need an "Official Lineski vs Big Red Machine" thread

I've looked at pics for a long time when doing my analysis of condition so if you can find some where they're both hitting a pose fully and then point out where I'm wrong, by all means go for it.

Jay looks thicker in the side chest because he's built like a refrigerator. Watch the videos; Jay looked blockier at the Olympia than he ever has and way blockier than Ronnie. I'm not sure why you're arguing mass/thickness with me anyways seeing how you already admitted that Ronnie beats Jay on mass. You don't see me arguing about symmetry do you?

Arnold won the Mr. O at 23 because he had the best genetics ever up till that time. Training and diet knowledge have improved so much since then and no bodybuilder from that era has the kind of muscle maturity athletes today have. Do you really think Arnold would stand a chance on todays stage? Sure if he grew up recently and was exposed to all the drugs and training knowledge his genetics would take him far in the sport still; he'd look incredible. But his physique as it was doesn't stand up to any top Olympian these days.
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 03:28 PM   #132
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jay doesnt have the smallest waist around but his shoulders makes his waist look alot better than ronnies.i have wachted the videos and jay isnt as blocky as you are saying lineski, his waist looks better than big rons.and i never said ronnie beats jay in mass i said they are close i should have said 50-50.
 
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Old 04-22-2006, 05:54 PM   #133
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Lineski, that was pretty a good system overall, but you still have to factor in the 8 mandatory poses, and possibly even individual parts.

I know you used the top 10 people, but as we all should know, Johnnie Jackson definitely deserved a higher placing, so he should've been in there. I'm not faulting you, though.
 
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Old 04-23-2006, 05:51 PM   #134
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I don't get it when people talk about "I want to see a more pleasing physique" I figured if you want to see a more "pleasing physique" go buy a fitness magazine a look at those ******s do their medicine ball workouts. These are the days of the mass monsters, freaky looking guys, sure smaller "pleasing" looking bodybuilder are good but people want to see someone who looks like they just stepped out of a Marvel Comic book.
 
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Old 04-23-2006, 06:07 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big red machine
jay doesnt have the smallest waist around but his shoulders makes his waist look alot better than ronnies.i have wachted the videos and jay isnt as blocky as you are saying lineski, his waist looks better than big rons.and i never said ronnie beats jay in mass i said they are close i should have said 50-50.
how can you say Jay's waist looks better than Ronnie's? Shoulder to waist ratio is pretty much the same on both guys. Jay has wider shoulders than Ron but jays waist is also bigger than Rons. How is Jay not as blocky as what Lineski is saying? Jay really doesn't have too many flowing/smooth lines in his upper body. You could build Jays upper body with a bunch of bricks and probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I'm a fan of all bodybuilders which does mean I look at comparisons w/ an open mind and don't favor anyone. I can tell you right now from all the good comparison pics I have seen the only things Jay beat Ron in for the '05 Olympia was the deep cuts in his quads, tricep shape and calves...thats it! Yes, you can say that Jay is wider than Ron but Jay's waist is also wider than Ronnies. I recently ordered Jay's new DVD and from watching the it its honestly unreal how flat Jay is. He's wide as hell but does not have thickness. If you want to see the best aesthetic & mass combo to date take a look at ronnie in the '05 Olympia.

EDIT: That's all I have to say...it's fun having these threads but after 4 weeks of the same old same old it gets a little...well, old. Both of these guys are among the best of the best and you have to remember Jay's only 33 (I think) and Ron is 41. Once Ron retires Jay will probably dominate just the way Ron has...
 
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Last edited by Diesel; 04-23-2006 at 06:10 PM..
 
 
Old 04-23-2006, 06:39 PM   #136
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holy sh*t at this team coleman onslaught lol, lineski may have typed the longest post in internet history, how can Team Cutler match that?

time to bump teh truth thread lol
 
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Old 04-23-2006, 06:49 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywalker
holy sh*t at this team coleman onslaught lol, lineski may have typed the longest post in internet history, how can Team Cutler match that?

time to bump teh truth thread lol

Fo sho.
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 04:26 AM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywalker
holy sh*t at this team coleman onslaught lol, lineski may have typed the longest post in internet history, how can Team Cutler match that?
Yeah that was pretty much my cardio for the day
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 05:15 AM   #139
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Ah.....Ronnie > Jay
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Old 04-24-2006, 01:19 PM   #140
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[QUOTE=fLesh23]Here we go fellas, enough of ruining someone elses thread...
thanks
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 01:21 PM   #141
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thanks
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 01:22 PM   #142
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Quote:
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thanks
stop sayin thanks!
.
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 01:30 PM   #143
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Jay Cutler > Ronnie Coleman

Cutz out, in your face babayyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
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Old 04-24-2006, 02:22 PM   #144
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question to team cutler:

what do you think jay would do differently to ronnie that would make him a better champion?
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:10 PM   #145
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does jay know that there is a battle for him against coleman's fans here in BBD ??
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:15 PM   #146
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i sure hope that jay knows that the big red machine, proud member of team cutler will always battle for iron jay.CUTS OUT BABY CUTS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:18 PM   #147
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loool .. ur a die hard fan of
cutler
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:46 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big red machine
CUTS OUT BABY CUTS OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
"Cuts out"...to me that means Jay's not cut and I would have to agree w/ you
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:52 PM   #149
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CUTS OUT means that jay is so cut that ronnie is out=history,finished hahahahahahahahahahahaha
 
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Old 04-24-2006, 03:54 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big red machine
CUTS OUT means that jay is so cut that ronnie is out=history,finished hahahahahahahahahahahaha
mmmm .. ok .. we're gonna see this 28th of september
 
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